I would allow it, it is actually more work than just putting it in the breaker. I would not call it out. 9 out of 10 Electricians will allow it.
I see them quite frequently in commercial applications which were just passed by the AHJ.
Ooooooooh. That tenth one could create problems.
I would call it out, then, and state that 9 out of 10 electricians will allow it. That allows my Clients to determine the level of risk that they want to take or find out why that one electrician won’t allow it. Maybe that one electrician is Mr. Client’s father. That could be fun.
That is usually the way I word things , that are like this and debatable. Good comment!
What happened to the 10th Electrician? Did he get knocked out by one of the others trying to hit a fly on his head with a clipboard? … 
He’s UIM.
I extracted some information from the UL Directory that seems to be useful. See my attachment here.
Having jst had Joe attend our Chapter’s electrical state CEU course today, I do feel confident in saying that it appears that Joe had ‘seel the light’ (PTL)
“Also, the issues we discuss here should be handled courteously and professionally, and from here on we should remember that quoting the code is a “Mortal Sin Among Home Inspectors” and I personally will only quote a reference when specifically asked.”
Recognizing the disease is the first step towards recovery! :mrgreen:
Seriously, Joe was and is a class act. Helped us with a few questions and really contributed.
Speaking for me, at least, All of us at NACHI Chicago were well and truely blessed to have him with us, today.
Thanks, Joe.
Hey Paul I do have to say those crimpers in the photo (3m kit) are terrible. At least use T&B’s if not racheting.
James
Having attended Mr Will Deckers excellent class yesterday, I have to give big kudos to Will and all the people at Chicago NACHI for their work in putting this course together… I had the pleasure of meeting Joe Tedesco and had him sign my “Electrical Course for Apprentice and Journeymen” book. Joe you have too many electronic gadgets … You are a walking “Circuit City store”! 
Thanks for your input !
We need “meat and potatoes knowledge” and courses that feed us this information but keep this in mind the whys and hows are important not necessarily the code that is attached to it. Having code numbers in our “Home inspectors head” is not as critical to me as to why and how this or that is NOT good…
Thanks all,
Now off to go skiing! WOOO HOOO:D
lol…crimps in the image could be 3M or T & B’s…the point is the PDF explains nothing against using these crimp COMPRESSION style connectors.
The are UL approved by the UL and listed on the crimp connector, also the UL pdf posted does not DIS-ALLOW them…this is STRANDED wire…of the connection metheds to use with stranded…I would prefer this method honestly…
Anyway…I kinda see the direction this post is going…lol…Well done JOE…I have helped you SEE the light…:)…Excellent…
However…regardless of how I feel about the crimps " Compression " connectors…they are allowed by the NEC and local AHJ’s
Please Support this Stance…with solid belief not personal belief
How many panelboards have you seen where the wire terminations were as questioned here?
How many have you installed this way?
Were you ever taught to use a crimp as suggested?
If so, please tell me where I can find that instruction, in the meantime I will stand on my decision, and we will just have to agree to disagree!
PS: What would Wayne Lilly say
OH and I meant to correct one comment of yours: “UL DOES NOT APPROVE ANYTHING” they “List or Label”, on the other hand, “Factory Mutual” does “APPROVE”
Mr. Lilly would most likely allow it in a Commercial Environment with Stranded Wire…why not ask him since you seem to act like you know him real well.
Secondly, it is explained in industrial and commercial apprentice classes when Stranded wire is used.
I have seen at least 15-20 in my time…not a issue if I would do it…the question is if it is allowed…Stay-Kon has UL listing and on certain terminals it is allowed. From what I can see in the image these look like simple flat set screw terminals with stranded wire…ALLOWED !
What you fail to understand is…not everything is JOE’s way…with Electricians IN THE FIELD working it everyday…new things are being done and new UL listed and approved items are coming out daily.
T & B will stand 100% behind the use of these Stay-Kons in the listed application.
Yep…we will have to disagree on this one…in light of no proven facts that disallow the use of them.
Guess we will leave it up to the AHJ to make that choice…
BTW…when something by UL is listed and labeled it is their approval on the item to receive the UL listing…
What ever JOE…or should I say SpinDoctor JOEBU…anyway they are UL listed…lets magnify some our YOUR choices of words over the year…lol
lol…ok…now for my personal feelings on the T & B Compression Crimps…
Pro- They actually do look nice in a Commerical panel that is full of wires and stranded at best…They are designed to grab the stranded wires and serrated inside the compression tube area so they hold rather well.
Con- They are sometimes not sized correctly in the barrel and they must be crimped compressed with the correct tool to ensure GOOD connections…I have see bad connections when the ELE used a Kline that has seen better days make the connection…does not look good.
My point was…nothing exactly prohibits it and it is fine to bring in personal feelings on it if you want to…factual it IS used in these manners.
In electrical school back in the mid 80’s we were taught to use standard cast NM connectors…but today we use cheap plastic T & B push in connectors…becasue times change and evolve…not what you are being taught in school…its what you adapt to once in the field.
Personally…I would think about using them IF i were dealing with stranded wire in a service enclosure…sure…I dont have a real problem with it…a crappy crimp will look crappy…and I tend to TUG on them to ensure they are connected well…
AS for torque…that is something done to the screw…how many electricians ACTUALLY carry a torque wrench…lol…yep I have one…
Dale,
The reason you see it alot is because it is allowed. Now as stated since you see alot of commerical applications and since many of the breakers used in these types of enclosures and CT settings are open set-screw design.
I believe as you stated you have an Electrician who looks at your Commerical Electrical.....the use of a "Compression " crimp is allowed under the NEC....now depends on the AHJ on anything as we know but the vast majority will allow it.
The creation of this terminal and LISTING by UL explains its use and allowed application…nothing prohibits it from the shown application unless the terminal used is not listed correctly, not sized correctly and not approved for this type of application in the way manufacturer specs…their are automobile versions spec. for 12 V…and then their is the 600V models…
As always use the CORRECT model…Be Safe…Not Sorry
Joe…don’t get me wrong…you are entitled to your opinion and I am teasing you a bit but again we are not above the NEC…unless the NEC dis-allows it…the AHJ needs to exercise knoweldge and not personal preference…otherwise they risk someone going over their head to the state governing board.
We in our area ( which I happen to not do alot of work in…I do most of my work in Nelson,CO ) but i digress…I believe in our HEAVY commerical and Industrial area ( poultry captial of the world ) Mr. Lilly whom most certainly knows his NEC…and would govern FROM the NEC and not his GUT I would hope.
Anyway…I think this thread has gone about as far as it can go…lol
Circuit City was the founding company on my “Do not ever shop at this company again” list, created in 1994. I think Joe’s better than that. I consider him a Home Depot with a Best Buy rating.
Pat;
I have found out, teaching in High School and College, that it isn’t so much the quality of the teacher, but the quality of the student. You, among many others at the class, provided me with as many challanges (good questions, challanging situations and skeptical receptiveness) to help me as I hope we helped you.
Remember, it wasn’t my class, it was NACHI Chicago’s class, as well as all the NACHI members. Everyone contributed, whether by making pictures available or helping me with answers or providing ‘war’ stories.
My deep thanks to Mr. Russ Myers and Mr. Ken Demski for their mentoring, challanging, nagging and praising. They kept the carrot at exactly the right distance in front of this donkey’s nose. Not to far, to frustrate, and not to near, to make it too easy.
Still have some tuning up and (wouldn’t you know) spell and grammar checking to do.