I just read http://www.epa.gov/EPA-IMPACT/2001/January/Day-17/i1081.htm and I hate to read.
I think the guest was pretty darn accurate for an on-site TV interview.
Anyway, I don’t think you need to research to death every word every TV show guest utters.
I just want to be clear…
** I believe our guest was mostly accurate throughout the video.**
But being a Rinnai vender, he was probably exaggerating. Apparently for many inspectors, they were harmed by the exaggeration/bending of the facts.
Here’s the data that I found:
"The water heater energy efficiency standards we are adopting today will have a positive impact on consumers. Consumers with electric water heaters would save $13.05 per year while those with natural gas water heaters would save about $12.74 per year on average. Of course these savings are not free, consumers will have to pay an average increase of $101 for electric and $58 for gas water heaters. Note that the total average increased cost for electric and gas water heaters are $105 and $118, respectively, due to the phase out of the current insulating foam blowing agent HCFC–141b and the compliance to resist ignition of flammable vapors on gas water heaters voluntarily agreed to between the manufacturers and the Consumer Product Safety Commission.
The simple payback for cost increases due to efficiency standards is 7.4 years for electric and 3.6 years for gas water heaters. The lifetime owning cost or life-cycle costs are lower than life-cycle costs on current water heaters by $23 for electric and by $30 for gas water heaters.
The design improvements the Department considered are thicker insulation and heat traps on both gas and electric water heaters and an improved heat exchanger (flue baffle) on gas water heaters. These improvements result in a four percent increase in energy efficiency for electric and an eight percent increase in energy efficiency for gas water heaters."
That’s a direct copy-past quote from:
4475 Federal Register/Vol. 66, No. 11/Wednesday January 17, 2001/Rules and Regulations
DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY
Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy
10 CFR Part 430
[Docket Number EE–RM–97–900]
RIN 1904–AA76
Energy Conservation Program for Consumer Products: Energy Conservation Standards for Water
Heaters
AGENCY: Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, Department of Energy (DOE).
ACTION: Final rule.
SUMMARY: The Department of Energy (DOE or Department) has determined that revised energy conservation standards for water heaters will result in significant conservation of energy, are technologically feasible, and are economically justified. On this basis, the Department is today amending the existing energy conservation standards for water heaters.
EFFECTIVE DATES: The effective date of this rule and standard is January 20, 2004.
So,
(1) the manufacturers did things to increase efficiency of water heater tanks, which included changing the heat exchanger (flue baffle). That’s what our guest said.
(2) The increase of efficiency is 4% (electric) and 8% (gas). The increase in efficiency is minimal in my opinion, (although the DOE calls it “significant”). Our guest said the increase was 1 and 1/2 % - exaggeration on his part.
(3) The increase in efficiency equates into only approximately $13 in savings per year (that’s only $1 per month!). That’s hardly a savings in my opinion.
(4) The average increase cost for a water heater is about $110. I think the average cost for a tank went up more than the DOE’s expectation.
(5) In 2004, manufacturers did something to the heat exchanger to increase efficiency (I don’t know what - it could have been a thinning of the tube - I don’t know), but it only increased efficiency by 4%. Which equates to only approximately $13 per year. That’s no increase! On top of that, the price of a water heater increased by around $110. So that “savings” is competely wiped out by the increase in the cost of tank!
(6) Our guest said that the life expectancy of a tank is now only 3 to 5 years based upon his experience. I disagree, but I have little experience with removing tanks from homes that have leaked or failed.
(7) It appears that our guest was correct in many ways. I agree that he was biased and exaggerating the numbers and bending the facts. But it seems that he was correct on the important points.
Anyone see things differently?
I apologize to those who have expressed that NACHI.TV (me in particular) has done a disservice in some way by not doing research and confirming everything a guest may propose, state, or conjecture. Remember, it’s a NACHI.TV show. Not a training/educational video.
(If anyone else has any more information about the efficiency increase and the changing of the heat exchanger of water heater tanks, I’d appreciate sending it to me or posting it on the message board.)
Here is the link to the DOE document that mandates the efficiencies for tanks in 2004, from which I got the above quote.
http://www.epa.gov/EPA-IMPACT/2001/January/Day-17/i1081.htm
Ben, one can tell you two are brothers.
Go read your post #1 and please try to understand why this “controversy” happened.
You are promoting the idea that a water heater only lasts 3 -5 years.
You said nothing about disagreeing with that statement until very late in the thread.
In promoting your video, you even said “Do you know that”?
Buck up man. Everyone is wrong now and then.
And…I will repeat…it is YOUR responsibility as a vendor to ensure the quality of what you provide to the members. Not your guests.
Being “mostly accurate” is equivalant to being wrong when the product is designed to inform. Your follow-up with suggested verbage for a report calling out a 2004 water heater as defect or concern is icing on the cake.
You put out wrong information which casts a shadow on everything that you have already or will produce. Did the same research (or lack thereof) go into any other video? We have no reason to believe otherwise, at this point.
As a vendor, the burden is on you to prove your product to be of the quality you hype it to be. As consumers, we have a duty to of our own to question the quality of your product when we find such things as this.
I apologize if I’m wrong. I take full responisibility for my words and actions. One of the points the expert stated was that when you go and purchase a water heater tank that was made 2004 or after, the life expectancy is only 3 to 5 years. He stated it, I repeated it. Is that true? (the life expectancy) Do you know that it’s false? Am I wrong about the life expectancy? All of the other things that he claimed about the efficiency, percentage, and cost are correct.
Ben,
Show me a water heater warranty less than 6 years and we can talk.
It’s just a TV show. A vendor talking about his product. Of course the guest is going to try to look really good on TV. It’s not training video. If you want training, that’s a different side of the NACHI.TV coin.
"When the water heater has been used for other than single
family residential application;
Watch out multi-unit inspections! Watch out duplex inspections, or inspections with a small front office and a residence, or a small dorm apartment upstairs, etc.
Let’s talk.
Jim… do you ever have anything good to say about anything or anyone? It was a good informative show. A lot of information there on tankless water heaters which inspectors will see increasingly often. We gave excellent information. It was one minor mistake. I see nothing wrong with speaking up when you see something’s not right but try giving a little credit where it’s due once in a while. Take a look around online and see where else you can get the great information on inspecting tankless water heaters tweaked just for home inspectors and for free.