Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
P.S. Talking about electric shocks, that is probably the biggest hazard for home inspectors ? particularly at service panels. A nasty shock can kill you.
Always look for proper service grounding, panel bonding, cut wires at knockouts, and other issues before even thinking about touching a service panel box. And don?t ever hold a small maglight in your mouth to keep your hands free when you are anywhere near a panel.
Remember 3 layers of protection too (options are insulated tools, gloves, insulated work boots, dry location, etc.). An electrician once told me to also put one hand in your pocket (or think that way) until you are absolutely sure that everything is shut down and there are no shock hazards at a service panel. But keep in mind that even with the main panel switch off, the service feeders coming in (the biggest hazard) are still energized. If anything looks wrong or you are just not sure, bail and have an electrician check it out.
Originally Posted By: dvalley This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Tim,
You mean to tell me that the only reason that the additional grounding (bonding) wire be installed across the meter is because in case the meter is removed.
What are the chances that a meter will have to be changed out?
Most meters last forever.
I don't understand why this additional wire had to be added. I can see if a meter had to be changed annually, but what are the chances of needing a bond across the meter if the meter will never be changed?
Originally Posted By: tpfleiderer This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dave,
The bonding wire that is across the water meter is for the purpose of insuring a constant bond of the metal water pipe at all times so you will not lose the grounding electrode or bonding of the metal water pipe. This would includes if or when the water meter is removed. As I stated above this is also done across the water heater for the same reasons. 
As far as how often the water meters are removed, I don't know that. We have lived in our house for just over ten years and have had our's change 2 times .
You will find that the NFPA's electrical codes (NEC) are written because someone has written a proposal to the code board for review and research statistics has shown that an above average number of people are being hurt because of the problem. So, the code board addresses that problem by writing a code.
Originally Posted By: dvalley This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Tim,
Thank you for clarifying that for me. Now I'm on the right path when this question is on put on me from my customer. Thanks again.
Another question now comes to mind... If bonding is not seen above the water heater, is this a red flag. And please explain to me why this is done. This is the first I've heard of this. 
Sorry for being a pain in the a$% but electrical is one field I had to study up on before I took my state exam. You are an asset, and really appreciate your answers.
Originally Posted By: tpfleiderer This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
David,
Bonding of the metal water pipes (as well as all other metal pipes in the home) is a very important safety step that should be taken in every home. You will find that older homes may not have the metal pipes bonded. The reason for all of this bonding of the metal pipes is to prevent someone from touching a metal pipe that may have electric current running through it and getting electrocuted. If the metal pipe is bonded to the service panel's grounding bar (as required by the National Electric Code) and the metal pipe does become electrified it will cause the breaker or fuse to blow, showing there is a problem. If the metal pipe is NOT bonded, as required, and becomes electrified then it becomes a booby trap waiting for an unexpected person to come along and touch the wrong place and ZAP!
So, the reason for the bonding wires across the metal pipes going in and out of the water heater and the water meter is to ensure that all of the metal pipes in a home have an uninterrupted path for current to flow to ground at all times.
As far as a red flag! Well, sense it is a safety issue, I would say that if you find (or suspect) that the metal pipes in a home are not bonded, that you should recommend that an electrician be consulted to test for proper bonding of all metal pipes.
I hope this helps 
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I agree with Tim, that a missing water heater hot/cold pipe boinding jumper is just something to be noted and not a red flag. This is to cover the situation where ther water heater isolates the pipes or the heater is replaced. But a missing electric service ground is a red flag.
I wonder if the guys who install replacement water heaters or meters install a temporary jumper if one isn't present when they go to do thier work ... yea right. 
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Russel … you are probably right about most of the licensed plumbers being aware of the bonding jumpers. Curious if they install a permanent bonding jumper, since I see this missing sometimes.
They are probably well aware of the potential hazard in not correctly re-attaching the service ground when the water service pipe is repaired, or installing additional service grounds/rods when the water service pipe is replaced with plastic. But I have found problems with this ? probably as the result of non-licensed contractors doing the work. Has that been your experience?
Another reason to use licensed contractors for any home improvement work, which I would always recommend.
Originally Posted By: rray This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I never recommend non-licensed people of any type to work in real estate simply because, under California law, they cannot warranty or guarantee their work. This applies to home owners, as well. I always recommend that Client request that repairs be done by qualified personnel and that receipts be given to Client.
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Ok, I am left wondering if a plumber comes in the home to install a water heater and has enough common sense to place a temporary jumper between the pipes, why then do they not just install a permanent jumper across the pipes and pass the charge onto the client?
Anyone agree since you are only talking about two clamps and a piece of bare wire, the cost is not that great. Really, if they are smart enough to realize the need for it from a safety standpoint, you would think they would want to limit their liability and place a permanent bond there!
Originally Posted By: ltrower This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I have been going thought the test getting ready to take my state test question #196 “The system ground may terminate on the gas piping.”
True
False
Our answer in the book is false.
As I walk the new homes that are being built in my area I have been seeing a lot of bonding to gas lines. So, today I had my buddy (who will soon join too) check with the head code enforcement officer for building codes here in Tulsa. He informed us that that is in the BOC code 1999 as a means of grounding. Now It makes no since to me as you can't ground to a water line in Oklahoma anymore and that is code too. Just thought you guys and gals might like to know.
Originally Posted By: tpfleiderer This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I will have to agree with Joe. According to the National Electrical Code, if the gas pipe is metal it will have to be bonded to, but you are not allowed to use a metal gas pipe as as grounding electrode. Please read the posts above this one and over on page one, I think you will understand the difference between bonding a metal pipe and using a metal pipe as a grounding electrode.
