Originally Posted By: James D Mosier This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Reading about grounding, neutrals and such in other threads, and trying to learn as much as possible about home inspection BEFORE starting my business I have a question about grounding.
In my 7 yr old house I have two bare copper wires exiting my service panel. One goes to a ground rod outside which makes sense. The other clamps to the main water line on my side of the water meter. It is connected about 20 feet from the water meter. There is no jumper around the meter and even if there was the supply pipe comming through the wall (before the meter) is plastic.
Is this proper? Is the idea here to ground the water system?
Someone also mentioned that the hot, cold and gas pipes at the water heater should be bonded. I don't have this either.
Originally Posted By: dbozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
James
The wire leading to the water line is actually a bond. In the panel there must be a ground rod connection to give it an equipment ground (EGC) and there must be a water bond, back to where the water enters the house or within 5 feet of that point. If you have plastic pipe coming into the house, placing a wire to that point does no good for plastic pipe is non conductive.
I am the so called duty expert that mentioned that the hot cold and gas lines also need to be bonded together. That's code. It essentially bonds all of the piping in the house back to the neutral buss where the egc is also connected. It's a simple thing to do......all you need are 3 water pipe clamps and a piece of #6 copper wire. Simply attach the 3 clamps to each pipe and then thread the wire though each clamp. The bonding is then done. Leave the connection at the water pipe though. Although it has no ground contact due to the plastic pipe, it does bond the piping back to the panel. I hope this helps and I tried to keep it simple. 
-- You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln
Originally Posted By: James D Mosier This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Thanks for the info.
But it leads me to more questions.
Why does the piping need to be bonded? And is the connection 20 feet from where the water enters the house a problem? The plastic pipe is only about 2" long inside the house.
Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hi James. Its important to try to understand that when the word “grounding” is used, it is often refering to two different things: putting things in the dirt “Earthing, or grounding” and creating a fault current path “bonding”.
Bonding is what you are asking about. Basically, you run a wire from the pipe back to service panel and it connects to the nuetral and ground there. That way, if you were to introduce a voltage onto the pipe, it go back on this (bonding) wire to the source, and a breaker would trip, thereby eliminating the possibility of the pipe remaining energized.
Fault clearance is a difficult thing to understand when you are first trying to learn electricity, so don't think that your questions are dumb...they are not.
If this doesn't answer your question, let me know and I'll try again. 
Originally Posted By: James D Mosier This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Thanks Dennis and Ryan.
Of course you would want the breaker to be tripped before you grabbed the outside spigot while standing barefoot in a puddle. I couldn't quite piece it together.
Believe it or not, in 1983 I was at the top of my residential electricity class at the local Vo-Tech(which isn't saying much). But 21 years and a job at an aluminum factory have allowed me to forget quite a bit. (I hope it's just being away from the trade, not Alzheimer's from aluminum dust.  )
Most of what I read about electricity jogs my memory but this bonding at the water heater and grounding of the pipes (as opposed to grounding "from" the pipes) just had me drawing a blank.
It is quite possible that it was not taught or taught incorrectly as I have found many cases over the years (starting in 1984 industrial elecricity) of bad instruction in my residential class.
Or I could give them the benefit of doubt and figure it's part of the 7 or so code changes since then. Either way, I have never been afraid of asking dumb questions and will continue to ask anyting I do not know. Just wait until I start into HVAC!
Originally Posted By: dbozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Bob…
See 250.104
The best place to bond the hot water piping, the cold water piping and the gas piping in a house is at the h20 heater. But of course you can do it anywhere but why make it difficult.
-- You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
My point exactly, just because you do not see a jumper between the inlet and outlet pipes on a water heater does not mean anything is in violation or incorrect.
I am well aware of 250.104 and you will not find anything in there that says water heater or that the bonding of the hot can not be accomplished by a the mixing valve at the tub / shower.
Ryan is an electrical inspector that expects to see the water heater jumped and there are others too.
This is one of the few things Ryan and I disagree on but in the end any additional bonding jumpers will not do any harm.
In my area I do not see inspectors asking for additional bonding jumpers if they are not needed.
There is not a bonding jumper on my water heater, the inlet and out fittings are electrically continuous. there is a bonding jumper around my plastic water filter. 
By the way you brought up bonding the gas piping, that along with the water piping can be bonded by the equipment grounding conductor for the circuit that may energize the piping.
Originally Posted By: Mike Parks This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Bob
"I am well aware of 250.104 and you will not find anything in there that says water heater or that the bonding of the hot can not be accomplished by a the mixing valve at the tub / shower."
I would fail you every time.
Your example is not an UL listed bonding devise.
And look at the definition of 'bonding' in article 100.
Try to use this same logic to the above: Why is the water meter required to be 'jumped'?
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Mike Parks wrote:
.
Try to use this same logic to the above: Why is the water meter required to be 'jumped'?
Could be because it is specifically required to be jumped by 250.53(D)(1). 
Quote:
(D) Metal Underground Water Pipe. Where used as a grounding electrode, metal underground water pipe shall meet the requirements of 250.53(D)(1) and (D)(2).
(1) Continuity. Continuity of the grounding path or the bonding connection to interior piping shall not rely on water meters or filtering devices and similar equipment.
Last time I checked a water heater is nothing like a filter or meter.
Following your logic and many others why do we not put a bonding jumper around every copper elbow, tee, coupling etc.?
None of those items are "UL listed bonding devise"
The fact is, the bronze bodied mixing valves at the shower that are soldered between the hot and cold water pipes provide a better bond then any wire clamped onto the pipes at the heater.
I say again tell me where in the code book it says we always must place a bonding jumper between the hot and cold water lines on a water heater.
You could fail me, I then could fight it and win, electrical inspectors can not enforce what is not required in this state.
Originally Posted By: dbozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Ahhhh but they can Bob. A city electrical inspector takes the NEC code and applies it to their city by adding to it. The NEC is the bare bones minimum for any city. If they choose to require that the bonding jumper for the hot, cold and gas pipes to be in plain view and to be applied to the H20 heater…well they have the right to enforce that and expect that
Granted it does not say where to apply this bond in the nec. However, I have worked in probably 90 different cities here in northeastern Ohio and every city inspector I have run across requires that this jumper be made at the water heater. That doesn't mean that is the only place. It means they see it like I do.....it is the easiest place to do it and it is also quite visible so there is no doubt that such had been applied. If the city code requires it to be at the H20 heater.....we have to comply with such. The nec is second to what the city states to be their code. Their city code is compiled from the nec and typically more excessive in nature.
-- You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dennis now we are on the same page more or less.
Yes the AHJ can add to the NEC but in order to for it to be binding or enforceable it must be a written requirement not just because the inspector asks for it.
This state has about 70 official changes to the NEC and I must abide by them.
My only point here is that telling the HIs that the lack of a jumper at the water heater is a code violation IMO is misleading.
Code aside, add as many jumpers as you want voluntarily, they certainly will not hurt anything and might help.
I work to a higher standard then the NEC but I will always expect only the NEC to be enforced, not some electrical inspectors idea of what is right.
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Mike Parks wrote:
Bob
The hot water tank and any of the faucets could be removed.
Mike any part of the water pipes may be removed and replaced with plastic.
The NEC does not expect me to cover all what ifs.
As far as what is shown in other books I could not give a rats a$% about that,  if it is not in the NEC you can not enforce it.
Happy to live in MA,  Bob
Originally Posted By: dbozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Ok Bob now I catch your drift and I stand corrected. I did say that huh. Ok HI’s ignore that statement. Bob is right…if the bonding jumper for the cold hot and gas lines is not at the H20 heater…it is not a violation. It is only a violation if it isn’t present anywhere…I do prefer it there tho…beats doing it anywhere else
– You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln
Originally Posted By: James D Mosier This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Alright you guys, you’ve led me to another question.
The pipes connecting to both my water heater and shower mixing valve are threaded and have pipe dope used as sealer. Does this compromise the electrical continuity?
Originally Posted By: dbozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
James,
I would think it doesn't because all you are concerned about is continuity from the panel back to where the water enters the house. Those connections virtually stop to where they are connected to. Only way I can see anything being compromised there is if the device was in series with the pipe continuing back to the water meter. Now if your H20 heater is electric, hopefully there is a ground there. If it is gas, and you have that sealing compound on it, then the heater itself may not be bonded in any way. I do not know if sealing compound is conductive or not and to me that would be the difference.
Hopes that helps.
-- You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
James,
I don't believe that pipe dope is conductive. Even given that it is not conductive, there is always going to be some contact between the pipe threads, otherwise you would have a lot of isolated gas and water pipes. I really could not see requiring every section of gas and water pipes in the house to be bonded to the panel individually! 
