NEC 250.32B1 Isolate neutral from EGC

[pabernathy (Paul Abernathy, CMI®, CMECP® Electrical Code Academy,Inc.)]

Sorry…I did not mean to drag it away from the original topic. I just happen to always install a MB panel regardless on any install to be honest with you. I think the NEC is a big wishy washy on this…but easier to clarity 225 as being outside and all its requirements apply…then when you get to 408 it applies to general panelboards and such…but does not make the requirements of 225 void…

anyway…was just trying to give an example of a panel that tends to NOT be covered very well…not sure why intelliTouch would not produce these without a build in main option anyway…

[Mike_Whitt]

@pabernathy

man I can’t wait all day for replies…lol…

This question was posted at a IAEI meeting and code panel responded with this:

• I have a detached garage with a panel in that accessory building that has 12 circuits available in that panel. I am installing only 6 - 120 volt single pole branch circuits in that panel in that garage. Do I meet the requirements of the 6-disconnect rule because I only have 6 sweeps of the hand installed? (service or sub-panel)
  Panel Response: Yes, assuming the panel is served by a feeder with overcurrent protection, then mains are not required in this panel. NEC 408.36(A) Exception 1
  Hang in there…I have a method to my madness…

The one thing that I love about the IAEI meetings if the debate that goes on after one of the panel members makes a mistake in their answer.

I agree with the exception found in 408.36 that a MLO panel does not require a main. What is covered in 408.36 is the requirement of a main in a panelboard if it is lighting and appliance panelboard.

What the question above describes is ARTICLE 225 Outside Branch Circuits and Feeders due to the fact that it is a detached garage. The requirements in 408.36 Exception One that a MLO panel with six single pole breakers is fine and I would not debate this.

What the panel member did fail to cover is the requirements found in 225 for the feeders that travel outside and part II of 225 for More Than One Building or Other Structure.

In Part II of 225 it clearly states that more than one building or structure on the same property and served on the load side of one service is required to have a disconnect (225.31) and this disconnect is required to be rated as service equipment (225.36).
It is through the rating of the disconnect as service equipment that we can comply with the requirements found in 250.32.

So the panel member’s answer was correct as long as the required disconnect is installed and is rated as service equipment. Section 408.36 does not relieve Article 225 in any way.

Sorry I didn’t answer right away as I had other things to do as well.

[pabernathy (Paul Abernathy, CMI®, CMECP® Electrical Code Academy,Inc.)]

@pabernathy

OK…the reason I gave the senerios is because of a proposal I am working on…but I wont bore you with it…

My opinion is that YES, each seperate structure does require a disconnect and it can be governed under the 6 disconnect rule…but does not remove the requirements of the disconnects within 225.32

It is not a service and would not be considered as such…

Now granted 408.36(A)(1) says that no main is required IF the OCPD feeding the said MLO panel does not exceed the panels rating…yada…yada…yada…basically here is my take on this…

Nothing will remove the requirement of 225.32 on a “outside” detached structure…it needs to have disconnection means…the 6 breakers would comply…but they need to be present…the 408.36(A)(1) is applying to panelboards in general…we can’t delute the requirements of 225.32…this is why if the panel is not detached ( within the dwellling so to speak )…it can be a MLO as long as the OCPD feeding this panel does not exceed the panels ratings…

Good stuff…man I am glad someone bought up that topic

I think thats what I said fella…lol…

But lets chat on this intelliTouch thing…I found this panel very interesting…I called the manufactures some time ago about something regarding it for a local inspector for the AHJ…and IntelliTouch officials said the panel was not a subpanel…but a control center for the pool system and no seperate disconnect was required…funny how it handles up to 8 breakers …guess they figure it could have (2) double poles…

OH…did I mention they hung up on me when I told them I wanted a disconnect …

Wait…actually I did not mention it all…can’t say I have seen a 20A 2 pole breaker rated as a service disconnect…lol

[pabernathy (Paul Abernathy, CMI®, CMECP® Electrical Code Academy,Inc.)]

@Mike Whitt

Sorry I didn’t answer right away as I had other things to do as well.

I know…only raggin on ya

[Mike_Whitt]

I am going to have to look into these panels a little future but the one thing that goes without saying no matter what the salesman says is

680.12 Maintenance Disconnecting Means.
One or more means to disconnect all ungrounded conductors shall be provided for all utilization equipment other than lighting. Each means shall be readily accessible and within sight from its equipment.

@pabernathy

I know…only raggin on ya

I know you was that is why we love you so much

P.S. Going to bed now because the wife said I had to…. said she had something to show me

Edited to add;

We was posting the same thing at the same time on the last couple of post. I think you type faster than me lol

[pabernathy (Paul Abernathy, CMI®, CMECP® Electrical Code Academy,Inc.)]

AHh…but the arguement to 680.12 could be that those individual breakers meet the disconnection requirements for 680.12 alone…what about the feeders…lol…

Yeah…my wife used that on me once also…but ended up only serving HER needs…not mine…

[pabernathy (Paul Abernathy, CMI®, CMECP® Electrical Code Academy,Inc.)]

look Mike…I am not allowed to have these conversations with you on electrical issues…because when I do I get these kinds of boxes…and oh yes they dont sign their name either…classic…dweebs…

InterNACHI®️ Forum

NEC 250.32B1 Isolate…7/21/07 8:53 PM

[pabernathy (Paul Abernathy, CMI®, CMECP® Electrical Code Academy,Inc.)]

OK…figured I will finish this off…

Basically I was trying to get people to think OUTSIDE the box when inspectors are looking at these things…yes, in the end it was to HELP the home inspector understand this better…not to have people give me freakin red boxes for trying to teach something ( tough crowd these days )

1.) The NEC is clear that the detached building needs a disconnection means, the 6 disconnect rule only applies IF the panel is " Suitable For Service Equipment " and will actually say so on the panels label.

2.) My example of a pool control system…which BTW is a “Sub-Panel” if it has OCPD located within it…would demand a " Disconnection Means " at the sub-panel for pools as well…unless of course it is " Suitable For Service Equipment "…panel and 6 breaker or less ( yeah fuses also )

3.) Just to keep you guys thinking…is their a exception to allow only (3) conductors to this panel…yep it is the same one as 250.32(B)(2) for detached garages…basically detached is…well…detached…but we will see that disappear down the road once your areas adopt the 2008 NEC.

4.) AS for 680.12…the breakers within the pool control system can serve as the disconnection means for the pool equipment…so thats all that is needed on that end as well…

Inspectors…if they RUN (4) conductors to the detached structure…then they have to use all (4) conductors…no if ands or butts…and trust me (4) conductors IS better…always is better in MY world of thinking.

Make sure they also have a GES for that detached structure…it will always need its own grounding electrode conductor and electrode…( of course we know of one exception for a single ciruit to a small shed so to speak…but we are talking BIGGER fish in the pond now arn’t we…yeah…sure we are.

so to round this topic out…the 6 disconnect rule does apply to both the service and subs…but read the SMALL little sections associated with it fully as that " Suitable For Service Equipment " just may change a few things…and just for educational purposes…do we know what makes it suitable for service equipment really…

Yep…the ability to bond the grounded bus to the enclosure and the grounding buss bar as you would in a normal service panel…chances are if it is a panel and has a bonding screw, strap or wire…it is " Suitable For Service Equipment".

Now…ENJOY life and stop giving me RED boxes on this thread for TRYING to help you people…GESSHHHH

PS. The image I posted shows a Disconnection Means to the right of the pool control panel…sorry as it is the best picture I could fine to show…also it was not finished yet I believe…see the 6 AWG for the ground rods hanging on the disconnect to the right.