Neutral and ground

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#1

Originally Posted By: kwilliams
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Neutral and ground together ?


Ok, I know this has been covered
BUT
Is it EVER ok for them to be together?
This is the main service panel. new house that
is not done yet ( power is not run to the house yet )

![](upload://gZ0I7tOKIx12Nvvps0AcCJzo0os.jpeg)


--
Member - MAB

http://www.nachi.org/convention2006.htm

#2

Originally Posted By: cbuell
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grounds and neutrals typically should not terminate under the same screw

#3

Originally Posted By: chorne
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kp,


good question, lets see what the electricians say!

#4

Originally Posted By: jpope
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This connection is fine for service equipment. . .


![](upload://2VNZeeOMtBh4wjCO8NouIzbawPY.jpeg)

These connections (grounds and neutrals under the same lug) are not okay - service equipment or not. . .

![](upload://4oleBoQxW8naypojx7kLNmh9IYB.jpeg)

--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

#5

Originally Posted By: kwilliams
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cbuell wrote:
grounds and neutrals typically should not terminate under the same screw


This I know, the question is, is it EVER ok

--
Member - MAB

http://www.nachi.org/convention2006.htm
#6

Originally Posted By: lkage
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Kevin,


I had a couple of electricians tell me that the intent of NEC 408.21 is like this quote from Mike Holt's site:

"The intent of this requirement is to ensure that the grounded (neutral) conductor of a multiwire branch circuit is not momentarily disconnected, which could result in the destruction of electrical equipment and fires from overvoltage."

...and because that was the intent some AHJs allowed the ground (grounding conductor) and neutral (grounded conductor) from the same circuit under one termination together.

Ya gotta love opinions. ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

--
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
Galileo Galilei

#7

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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The neutral and ground from the same circuit, under the same screw does make some sense. You should have the breaker off so it is not inherantly unsafe. If you disconnect the wrong terminal all bets are off anyway.

#8

Originally Posted By: pdickerson
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Greg,


The neutral and the ground from the same circuit at the same termination may make some sense as you say (I take this to mean that an unsafe situation is not likely to arise from this scenario), however it is my understanding that it is never OK (meaning it is always a code violation) to terminate a neutral with any other wire. That is the question in the original post.

#9

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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Since 2002 (whenever that was adopted in your area) it is illegal to terminate more than one grounded conductor on a lug but before that it was up to the manufacturer’s instructions, 110.3(B). If it is not clearly defined on the label the “illegality” is pretty murky, particularly when it is an old panel.

#10

Originally Posted By: pdickerson
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Thanks for the clarificaton Greg. I thought I remembered reading in a previous post that the pre-2002 NEC’s intent was to dis-allow two neutrals under 1 lug, but that it was written in a confusing way, and so they made it more clear in the 2002 NEC. I may not be remembering that right though.

#11

Originally Posted By: dvalley
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Now that you got your neutral/ground question answered, I have a question.


Where is that white insulated wire and the ground wire getting tapped? Same thing on the opposite side and two spaces above that one.
![](upload://4QMDaE8EwZralAUS1nN96d9wMsQ.jpeg)

--
David Valley
MAB Member

Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."

#12

Originally Posted By: Steven Brewster
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There are two more on the opposite side, just like that.

#13

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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Kevin David brings up a great point, what is up with this?


![](upload://z5AaHShf7MZAKQkDUKxwQKMqIuE.jpeg)

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

#14

Originally Posted By: kwilliams
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I think it may be the lug… as the house is still open


I will try to stop by for a better view This is a


phase inspection I have been doing…

–
Member - MAB


http://www.nachi.org/convention2006.htm

#15

Originally Posted By: rhinck
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Kevin,


I appreciated your question be cause I have been doing home inspections in central Illinois and have been a home builder for 30 yrs and have yet to see grounds and neutrals NOT under a single lug.


Rick

#16

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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Firstly, I personally think using the jacket on the romax to label a panel is (1) crappy and (2) not needed. In our area that would fail just for spite by most of the " CITY " inspectors. ( You know how much power the AHJ has…lol )


Secondly, I also do not ever recall in my nearly 20 yeas in the electrical business ( even in older wiring ) where I have seen a neutral and ground connected to a breaker.....heck my 7 year old son would not do that..lol

Anyway...something has to be missing from this image...just not sure what....maybe they just turned them the wrong way and they are not terminated on anything...who knows...

But Bob is right......I agree..." Whats up with that...lol "

--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

#17

Originally Posted By: kwilliams
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rhinck wrote:
Kevin,
I appreciated your question be cause I have been doing home inspections in central Illinois and have been a home builder for 30 yrs and have yet to see grounds and neutrals NOT under a single lug.

Rick


Me too...... in regard to the "jacket on the romax to label a panel" I would hope they will take them off when they put the cover on.

--
Member - MAB

http://www.nachi.org/convention2006.htm
#18

Originally Posted By: jpope
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kwilliams wrote:
Me too...... in regard to the "jacket on the romax to label a panel" I would hope they will take them off when they put the cover on.


I doubt they will come off. I see this often when I pull covers.

--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
#19

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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Paul,


Prior to 2002, the main reference to the violation per say to (2) neutrals under one termination was covered by UL standards....But as the NEC took a look at this and bought it into the revision for 2002.

It was a prevous violation because it did not meet the standards of equipment compliance in the NEC.....as the manufacturer of the panel did not intend for the neutrals to be done as such.....it just took 2002 NEC to finally place it in written form via Art. 408.21....now what allows panels to have (2) Eqp. grounds together...note Art. 110.3(b) as most panels now list this as being acceptable.

--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

#20

Originally Posted By: kwilliams
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another new house I did today


![](upload://gzcqYE7OfulO6hjrD2pyoP4gVrN.jpeg)