Terminating Neutrals on Ground Bars

Originally Posted By: roconnor
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jfarsetta wrote:
Am I incorrect?

You are correct. Bob indicated that panel was the Service Panel, with a Main Disconnect (MD), which is where the neutral-ground bond goes.

Actually, the only place where there should be a neutral-ground bond is at the service entrance equipment with the MD ... even if this is a separate box (sometimes called a "service box" or "service disconnect") ahead of the main distribution panel (e.g. Main Lug Only or MLO distribution panel with an upstream MD). Here is an example of that:

CLICK HERE
AND CLICK HERE

Sub-panels (either with or without an MD) or a main distribution panel without the service MD should not have a neutral-ground bond ... the neutral "floats" ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

[PS ... I believe the correct term for a service equipment panelboard which has the main service disconnect is "Service Panel", while a service equipment panelboard without the main service disconnect is called a "Distribution Panel". Maybe Bob can verify that.]


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Joe,


Even in the main panel.

Now for clarification, and the reason Bob used Service panel.

You could have a Service Equipment with main disconnect, no branch circuits. That makes the main panel NOT service equipment.

The neutral is to be isolated from ground beyond the Service Equipment.

Main panel, sub panel, doesn't matter. If IT IS NOT the Service Equipment, the neutral is isolated from ground.

I keep stressing ... THINK SERVICE EQUIPMENT, not main panel or sub panel. If it is not service equipment, then it does not matter what you call it (for this consideration), as long as you recognize that it is not service equipment.

Somewhere along the line, and I think it is still be done, someone started teaching (and still is) that neutrals and grounds are connected at main panels and are not connected connected at sub panels. That type of teaching creates much confusion and many problems, not the least of which is incorrectly calling out the location where the neutral is bonded to ground.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: roconnor
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I think a simple thing to remember is that the neutral-ground bond is ONLY at the service equipment main disconnect … icon_wink.gif



Robert O’Connor, PE


Eagle Engineering ?


Eagle Eye Inspections ?


NACHI Education Committee


I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



David


"What about the ground and neutral under the same screw?"

This is a common find. I do not know when it started being a violation.

408.21 is new to 2002 NEC. I was looking in the 1996 NEC and could not find it in 384.

I remember this being a violation in 1999 but do not have a reference.

Is the above a violation? Maybe. Is it a safety hazard? I do not think so, IF they are of the same circuit.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Mike,


There should not be any other conductor in the same terminal with the neutral conductor. Like the 'hot' conductor, the neutral (actually not a 'neutral') carries intentional current (unlike the equipment ground conductor, which is there for unintended current) and needs a positive terminal connection.

It is also a code violation, besides being included in 110-14. I am just leaving so I can't look up that reference. By the time I get back, someone (Bob? Robert?) will likely have provided that reference.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: roconnor
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Mike Parks wrote:
I remember this being a violation in 1999 but do not have a reference.

Double lug neutrals would have been a violation of the listing requirements (NEC 110.3.B), as it was previously covered by the UL panelboard listing/labeling standard. Section 408.21 is new for the 2002 NEC, which I understand was put there specifically to tighten up the code and prohibit neutral double lugs.

Don't know when the UL standard started prohibiting double lug neutrals (maybe Joe Tedesco knows) ... I think it's been there for a while. But I dont think it really matters. NFPA doesn't add things to the NEC unless there are real issues. Any way ya slice it, a double lug neutral would not meet a crystal clear restriction in a current safety standard.

So in my book, a double lug neutral should get flagged as a safety hazard every time, just like double lug hot wires (with wire-to-wire contact).

Just my 2-nickles


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



UL-67 was developed to cover panelboards and I have just been advised (I am at a meeting) by a very qualified NEMA representative that the rule now in 408.21 was in that UL Standard from the beginning. You can go to www.ul.com and search for a representative and ask an engineer.


Here is the new rule and commentary:

408.21 Grounded Conductor Terminations.
Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.
In accordance with their listing and the requirement of 110.14(A), conductor terminations are suitable for a single conductor unless the terminal is marked or otherwise identified as suitable for more than one conductor. This requirement applies only to the termination of grounded conductors in panelboards. The use of a single termination point within a panelboard to connect more than one grounded conductor or to connect a grounded conductor and an equipment grounding conductor can be problematic when it is necessary to isolate a particular grounded conductor for testing purposes. For example, if the grounded conductors of two branch circuits were terminated at a single connection point and it was necessary to isolate one branch circuit for the purposes of troubleshooting, the fact that the circuit not being tested remains energized can create an unsafe working condition for service personnel disconnecting the grounded conductor of the circuit that is being tested. There are panelboard instructions that permit the use of a single conductor termination for more than one equipment grounding conductor. See 408.20 for the requirements on panelboard terminations for grounded and equipment grounding conductors.
Exception: Grounded conductors of circuits with parallel conductors shall be permitted to terminate in a single terminal if the terminal is identified for connection of more than one conductor.

408.20 Grounding of Panelboards.
Panelboard cabinets and panelboard frames, if of metal, shall be in physical contact with each other and shall be grounded. Where the panelboard is used with nonmetallic raceway or cable or where separate grounding conductors are provided, a terminal bar for the grounding conductors shall be secured inside the cabinet. The terminal bar shall be bonded to the cabinet and panelboard frame, if of metal; otherwise it shall be connected to the grounding conductor that is run with the conductors feeding the panelboard.
A separate equipment grounding conductor terminal bar must be installed and bonded to the panelboard for the termination of feeder and branch-circuit equipment grounding conductors. Where installed within service equipment, this terminal is bonded to the neutral terminal bar. Any other connection between the equipment grounding terminal bar and the neutral bar, other than allowed in 250.32, is not permitted. If this downstream connection occurs, current flow in the neutral or grounded conductor would take parallel paths through the equipment grounding conductors (the raceway, the building structure, or earth, for example) back to the service equipment. Normal load currents flowing on the equipment grounding conductors could create a shock hazard. Exposed metal parts of equipment could have a potential difference of several volts created by the load current on the grounding conductors. Another safety hazard created by this effect, where subpanels are used, is arcing or loose connections at connectors and raceway fittings, for example, creating a potential fire hazard. Exhibit 408.4 illustrates the connection of the grounded conductor (neutral bar) to the metallic service equipment enclosure via the main bonding jumper.

Exhibit 408.4 A split-bus lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboard supplying an individual residential occupancy.
Exception: Where an isolated equipment grounding conductor is provided as permitted by 250.146(D), the insulated equipment grounding conductor that is run with the circuit conductors shall be permitted to pass through the panelboard without being connected to the panelboard?s equipment grounding terminal bar.
Grounding conductors shall not be connected to a terminal bar provided for grounded conductors (may be a neutral) unless the bar is identified for the purpose and is located where interconnection between equipment grounding conductors and grounded circuit conductors is permitted or required by Article 250.
The grounding of electronic equipment as well as overall power quality is of concern to the electrical industry. Sensitive electronic equipment used in industrial and commercial power systems may fail to perform properly if electrical noise is present in the equipment grounding conductor.
An isolated equipment grounding terminal is permitted if required for the reduction of electrical noise on the grounding circuit. This equipment grounding terminal must be grounded by an insulated equipment grounding conductor that is run with the circuit conductors. The isolated equipment grounding conductor is also permitted to pass through one or more panelboards (without connection to the panelboard grounding terminal), but it is very important that the equipment grounding conductor terminate directly at the applicable separately derived system or service grounding terminal. If the isolated equipment grounding conductor is run in a separate building, however, 250.146(D) requires the isolated equipment grounding conductor to terminate at a panelboard within the same building.
A connection to only a separate grounding electrode that places the earth in the fault return path may prevent sufficient current for opening overcurrent protection when a ground fault occurs. See the commentary following 250.146(D) FPN and 250.54.


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Robert


"Double lug neutrals would have been a violation of the listing requirements (NEC 110.3.B), "

A Square D QO panel (white wires) is rated for two conductors.

Where is the reference in the 1999, or 1996 or earlier editions?

I am asking. Not questioning.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: rmoore
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Quote:
A Square D QO panel (white wires) is rated for two conductors.


Mike...I thought we had settled that this wasn't the case back in November over at IN.

Directly from the Square-D QO pdf...

![](upload://mabWyjqoQ13LUsPAatJnMdyOGUj.jpeg)

The last part clearly states for grounding conductors...not neutrals.


--
Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services
Seattle, WA
www.rainspect.com

Originally Posted By: roconnor
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jtedesco wrote:
UL-67 was developed to cover panelboards and I have just been advised (I am at a meeting) by a very qualified NEMA representative that the rule now in 408.21 was in that UL Standard from the beginning.

I would buy that. Thanks Joe.

Mike Parks wrote:
Where is the reference in the 1999, or 1996 or earlier editions?

That would be 1996/1999 NEC 110-3(b)

Mike Parks wrote:
A Square D QO panel (white wires) is rated for two conductors.

The UL standard on panels would not have allow that (and would therefore violate the NEC listing requirement). Not sure where you are going with that one, or if ya have info that SQ-D panels had listing/labeling that didn't comply with the UL standard.


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong