Windows: Reporting Loss of Thermal Seals

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21

Originally Posted By: ekartal5
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“A failed weather seal is a failed window in need of repair and/or replacement”.


OOPPS. I forgot about the word 'window' - focused on 'glass' too much. Thirsty I guess.

Erol

22

Originally Posted By: rcooke
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jhagarty wrote:
Erol:

Maybe I need to clarify.

Windows can be repaired if the frames afford replacement of the glazing. There are glass companies in this area that frequently replace the glass only and retain the window sash and frame.

If the glazing can not be repaired, then the window unit would need to be replaced.

Why must it be replaced .
If it is still doing the job of keeping out the weather and the owner is not concerned .
Why should I tell them in must be replaced.
Many buying their first home do not have the money to fix what is only a cosmetic concern.
My thougts Roy sr.
23

Originally Posted By: Jay Moge
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Roy. not to step on any toes here, but i think you’re missing the point. if your buying a house with thermal pained windows, one (or more) window has a bad seal, now it’s no longer a thermal pained window as by design and deserves to be writen in the report as a difficiancy. and the only way to remidy the situation is to repair or replace it. “it” being the window pane. or if more cost effective, the sash or what ever it takes to make it right. it’s not like the work was already done and now they’re getting a bill. it’s just like anything else we as inspectors see that’s not right, better to mention it, ask seller to have it fixed before sale is complete or what ever they want to do about it, than to not mention it and try explaining it to a judge why we knew and didn’t write it up. just my thinking. icon_cool.gif

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24

Originally Posted By: rcooke
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


If you look at the third post I had said earlier to make sure you not miss them.


I do report them I write hard and talk soft miss nothing.


It is the buyers choice on replacing them .


What I am saying is they do not cost any thing to leave them .


A window that leaks a lot of air is more important to replace .


Seal gone is only cosmetic.


Roy sr

25

Originally Posted By: Jay Moge
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


did you mean to repost your last post Roy? icon_cool.gif

26

Originally Posted By: dduffy
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


rcooke wrote:
jhagarty wrote:
Erol:

Maybe I need to clarify.

Windows can be repaired if the frames afford replacement of the glazing. There are glass companies in this area that frequently replace the glass only and retain the window sash and frame.

If the glazing can not be repaired, then the window unit would need to be replaced.

Why must it be replaced .
If it is still doing the job of keeping out the weather and the owner is not concerned .
Why should I tell them in must be replaced.
Many buying their first home do not have the money to fix what is only a cosmetic concern.
My thougts Roy sr.


Roy,

I mentioned a failed seal be addressed as repair or replace, for the fact that I don't want to repair or replace it at my expense.

Whether someone fixes it or not, at least it isn't me....

I had the dual pane window in the front of my house replaced last year because I was sick of seeing the fogged glass, I didn't care about the insulating value, which is next to none. The cost of the glass replacemet was $500.00...the window cost $2,000.00

So if someone says don't worry about it, or does not mention the fact you might not be able to see out of it during the right atmospheric conditions, at least I told them so....because I don't want to spend two grand for a entire window...which they "might" want.
27

Originally Posted By: jhagarty
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


rcooke wrote:


Why must it be replaced.

If it is still doing the job of keeping out the weather and the owner is not concerned . Why should I tell them in must be replaced.


Roy:

My Client is generally not the Home Owner.

What is of a concern to the current Property Owner is not my Interest.

rcooke wrote:


Many buying their first home do not have the money to fix what is only a cosmetic concern.



But Inspectors with E&O Insurance, that Fail to report Deficiencies, have the perceived deep pockets to pay for these (as you say) cosmetic concerns.

You do have E&O?

--
Joseph Hagarty

HouseMaster / Main Line, PA
joseph.hagarty@housemaster.com
www.householdinspector.com

Phone: 610-399-9864
Fax : 610-399-9865

HouseMaster. Home inspections. Done right.
28

Originally Posted By: phinsperger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


rcooke wrote:
...
It is the buyers choice on replacing them .
What I am saying is they do not cost any thing to leave them .
A window that leaks a lot of air is more important to replace .
Seal gone is only cosmetic.
Roy sr


Exactly!


dduffy wrote:

So if someone says don't worry about it, or does not mention the fact you might not be able to see out of it during the right atmospheric conditions, at least I told them so....because I don't want to spend two grand for a entire window...which they "might" want.


As I said before; "Absoutley report it". Its in everyones best interest.

I think the problem here is the level of concern that is reported to the client.

Does the window need to be replaced or repaired? No. It will have no detrimental effect if its not. It's not like fixing a leaking pipe to stop further rot of the wood framing or mold issues ect. The insulaing argon (if there was any) is already gone. The effect on the heating/cooling bill is very negliable.

Should the window need to be replaced or repaired? That's up to the client. For visablity, resale value, or just general astetis sure go ahead. But don't it because you think it will have a marked difference on your utility bills because it won't. And that is what most people think and need to educated on. It can easily sit with a broken seal for as long as the client wants without any further serious degregation

dduffy wrote:

I had the dual pane window in the front of my house replaced last year because I was sick of seeing the fogged glass, I didn't care about the insulating value, which is next to none.

Yes, because you were sick of looking at it. Not because if if you didn't replace it it was going to cost you more money down the road.
29

Originally Posted By: bkelly2
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


My contract clearly states I do not guarantee dual pane windows. Now that does not mean I do not call them out when I find them. But it is so dry here that the windows might not show moisture unless it is raining, and even then the rain would have to hit the window just right.


I believe that window seals could fail and not show any signs of moisture at all. I can not see Argon or Nitrogen, how would I know if the seal has failed? Why would I want to increase my liability by guaranteeing them.

I can not believe the inspectors paid a claim Gerry, seems like disclosure to me.

30

Originally Posted By: dduffy
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Your not a window expert, the thing could fail at anytime and if you want to fix it great, if not don’t.


But I said it's screwed-up, take it with a grain of salt or if you like looking through fogged windows have at it.... ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

31

Originally Posted By: mcyr
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


icon_smile.gif icon_smile.gif


Broken seal in a thermo-pane has very little effect on the performance of the window, and dose not necessarily have to be replaced or repaired unless it is gotten to be an aesthetic issue by the buyer or the current owner of the dwelling.

In fact, the R-factor rating of a double pane and a single pane are miniscule, and further research would help anyone no this if they took this course. I have offered the link below, and I think it is the best educational site offered by an idividual Company.


http://www.certainteed.com/CertainTeed/Pro/Design+Professional/DesignProContEduc.htm

Hope this helps. Learn all about windows.

Marcel

32

Originally Posted By: jfunderburk
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


(and for ventilation reasons). If you can’t see through it clearly, it does not function as intended and therefore meets the definition of a Signficant Issue. It’s not a “aesthetic issue” at all–the window it not functioning as intended IMHO.


Apparently that point is as clear as a fogged window.

33

Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


jfunderburk wrote:
A window is NOT put in a home for thermal insulation reasons!. It is put there so you can see through it to the outside (and for ventilation reasons). If you can't see through it clearly, it does not function as intended and therefore meets the definition of a Signficant Issue. It's not a "aesthetic issue" at all--the window it not functioning as intended IMHO.

Apparently that point is as clear as a fogged window.


Agreed, and I personally know 2 New England home inspectors who have found that out the hard way.................. through the check-book

Regards

Gerry
34

Originally Posted By: bkelly2
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


I have just knocked out the opaque windows in the bathroom, as they do not function as intended. icon_smile.gif I can’t see through them.


I call out all fogged windows I observe. But it is dry here.

35

Originally Posted By: phinsperger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


jfunderburk wrote:
A window is NOT put in a home for thermal insulation reasons!. It is put there so you can see through it to the outside (and for ventilation reasons).


The "see through it" part of a window is aesthetics only.

In some scenarios there is a maximum glassed area allowed. There is not a minimum glass area.

I do not know of any requirement for natural light in building codes.

Windows are required in sleeping areas for egress reasons not light.

Windows can be used for ventilation but it is not the best method for this. A better method is with mechanical ventilation and preferably a balanced system. Opening a window either pressurizes or depressurizes the house causing air movement through cracks and other openings as the pressure tries to equalize. Under some conditions this can cause moisture to accumulated inside wall cavities around these openings. In addition, opening a windows does not deliver filtered, conditioned air. Except for the purposes of egress as mentioned earlier, one can have a fixed pane window that does not open at all. In fact, new operable windows (when closed) must not exceed a certain level of air infiltration and the less infiltration the better.

I fully support reporting fogged windows but I think you should be doing it for the right reasons.

The above is based on the Ontario Building code but I would suspect that much of it is similar elsewhere.
36

Originally Posted By: dduffy
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outside in the afternoon, especially when it could be 110 degrees in July.


I replaced my stationary window a while back because it was 50 degrees outside, again I just wanted to look outside. Much to cold to go out in it.

When it was 75 degrees yesterday I opened all the windows for ventilation and I did not have any fogged windows which would pi$$ me off to contend with.

37

Originally Posted By: mcyr
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


icon_smile.gif icon_smile.gif


Hi. to all.


A few tips on window performance.


Depending on the type of window, Window Medics has found, on average, 75% of failed windows do not have a seal failure but are simply fully saturated from years of Solar Pumping.

Eventually every thermal pane window will lose the ability to absorb condensation and fog up.

Foggy windows or windows with condensation and moisture is primarily due to the inability of the window to absorb moisture that naturally builds. Windows are manufactured with a specific moisture absorption life span (i.e., 5 years, 20 years etc) that is based on solar pumping activity, which causes foggy windows.

The Solar Pumping activity from the sun slowly over a period of time saturates the Silica desiccant material until eventually fog, condensation or moisture appear on the inside surface of the window. Once this occurs the moisture is trapped within the window and the endless cycle of heating, fogging, cooling, condensing begins until eventually the window is fully saturated. This cycle usually starts as foggy windows.


U Value
The rate of heat flow through a glazing system; the lower the value, the better the insulating quality. U value can be compared to R value by dividing 1 by the U value. Thus, a U value of 0.5 equals an R value of 2.

Copied this from an article I found.

(Quote)
Expert:
Date:6/20/2000
Subject:leaky thermopane

Question
Dear Mr. Jack, I have a few very big double-pane picture windows. They would cost a great deal to replace. One of them recently --during our recent spate of summer thunderstorms here in Virginia-- revealed that moisture had begun to get into the space between the panes, making the windows steamy and fogged, under certain weather conditions. Is there any way that I can repair, or at least minimize, this deterioration in the presumed original seal between the windows? I`d hate to have to choose between spending a fortune or having the view through the window interfered with. I don`t know much about these things, but I`m imagining that there`s some sort of vacuum in them originally. But could anything be accomplished by caulking around where the seal may have broken? Your thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks. Andrew Schmookler

Answer
Andrew,

I wish I had better news. The onyl way to correct the problem is replacement. The reason that they are fogging up is that the drying agent inside the spacer of the window has absorbed all the moisture it can. An insulated unit built today has a life of about 15 - 20 years. But as recent as 5 years ago, it's life might be only 5 - 10 years. The process has come a long way, but that doen't help you out at all, I know.

An insulated window has four main componenents. The two pieces of glass, the spacer material that separates the two pieces of glass, the desicant (a drying agent to absorb moisture) and the sealant material. An insulated window is not always air tight, nor is it in a vacuum. Otherwise, when a unit was made at one elevation and shiped to another it would either expand or colapse depending on if it was higher or lower. Sometimes a breather tube is inserted to compensate for this. But it only will allow air, not moisture to enter. If moisture laden warm air is entering the unit, it is because a large section of the sealant has failed. If you could remove the unit from the frame and seal any air leakage points, you could keep it from getting worse, but you would still be trapping moisture inside, and it would keep showing up, as well as staining the glass as it dries.

This is proably more information than you really needed, but I wanted you to understand why replacement is needed. Sorry to have such bad news.


Hope this information helps.

Marcel