2500lbs too much for floor?

Originally Posted By: contech24
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I am trying place a fish tank on the living room – but i am afraid that the tank is too heavy. here are pics - please let me know if its safe or not.


** The wall bearing doesnt support the wall as stated on the website, after removing the concrete ceiling, i discover that there is a 1inch gap from joist to ceiling. ![icon_sad.gif](upload://nMBtKsE7kuDHGvTX96IWpBt1rTb.gif)

I am going to put 3 floor jacks with a floor joist that is pressure treated.
Thanks!


Originally Posted By: rmagee
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I don’t know if this is really the proper forum to obtain advice on this question. Home Inspectors are not normally engineers and do not offer advice regarding the ability of a floor system to perform anything other than the job it was intended to do.


Normally when an inspector is faced with something placing an unusual load on a floor we advise our clients to have the situation evaluated by an engineer. Inspectors are generalists. We look for things that are out of the ordinary and direct our customers to seek expert advice.

There are simply too many variables to provide an answer based on examination of photos. I suspect that even if you found a message board populated with structural engineers they would be hesitant to provide advice without a visit to the location in question.

I guess the best advice I can give you is:

"There is an extremely heavy fish-tank in the building. I recommend you retain the services of a structural engineer to evaluate the ability of the floor to support this type of load."


--
Rick Magee
Building Check Ltd.
Fredericton, N.B. Canada
1-506-454-3332
bcheck@nbnet.nb.ca
"check with a professional"

Originally Posted By: contech24
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thanks, but if anyone does have opinions I would like to hear it.


Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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Just a thought, but, don’t waterbeds weigh quite a bit? My last one was a solid oak frame, king size. So, the mattress was probably 78x72x8, which is probably somewhere about 100 gallons or so. Dern thing weighed quite a bit and was sitting on a floor of 2x8 joists 16 inches on center.


Originally Posted By: rmagee
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Your waterbed spread the load over a larger surface and weighed only 50% to 60% of the weight described here.


In addition the floor joists are unconventional in size, unconventional in spacing. The author indicates they are 2 1/2 inches wide, but has not provided the depth. The depth of the joist may be more important than the width.

His picture shows a joist that might measure 2 1/2" X 6". It has been some time since lumber with those dimensions has been used. That opens the question of possible deterioration due to age.

I still stick with my original post, "refer to an expert".


--
Rick Magee
Building Check Ltd.
Fredericton, N.B. Canada
1-506-454-3332
bcheck@nbnet.nb.ca
"check with a professional"

Originally Posted By: phinsperger
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Contech24,



First off I applaud you for taking the time and effort to research this out. Too many people wouldn't have even bothered.

I went to your web site but with all the large pic's I couldn't wait any more for them to load so I really didn't stay long. I believe you said you are putting the tank 1 foot from the wall which help a great deal.

When measuring the joist spacing, are you aware that the measurement is not the measurement of the actual space between the joist but rather from the center of one joist to the center of the next joist. You 13-14" measurement leads me to believe that you measured the space only. If this is the case then your joist may very well be on 16" spacing.

You will also need to know the span of the joists, the depth, weather they are strapped or blocked. In Canada the maximum deflection at the center span of a floor joist is 1/360 of the clear span. In maybe the same in the States, but really don't know.

If the tank is already ordered, Why don't you just set it up measure the defection in your floor. Start filling the tank and monitor the deflection as the tank fills. If the deflection reaches 1/360 of the span, stop filling the tank and get an engineer.


--
.


Paul Hinsperger
Hinsperger Inspection Services
Chairman - NACHI Awards Committee
Place your Award Nominations
here !

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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I’m guessing it is about half that heavy. Its only about 1100 pounds of water, add a few more hundred pounds of tank and fish and I doubt it exceeds 1500 pounds. Shouldn’t take too much to support that. That’s like a big spa tub.



Jerry Peck


South Florida

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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I agree with Jerry on the weight issue.


The measurements given are 92 x 18 x 21

That comes out to 34,776 cubic inches or 20.125 cubic feet.

7.48 US gals per cubic ft = 150.535 gals

Ordinary water is 8.34 pounds per US gallon.

Total water weight if filled to the brim 1255.46 pounds.

The fish will not add weight as they weigh about the same as the water they will displace.

The rocks will only add a bit more than the water they displace.

I think Jerry's estimate is pretty close. ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)

Yeah I got to much time on my hands.

Bob


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: contech24
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thanks guys, well here’s some more pics with the joist and jack post i added. please take a look, perhapsh it’ll give3 you a better idea. so 150 lbs per sq foot isnt much?


http://www.pages.drexel.edu/~tsv23/update.html


Originally Posted By: Gino Conner
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As a side note, when you are done with that project, I would address the white plastic flexible dryer vent duct. That is a major fire hazard and a code violation in most locations. An employee of mine just just had a nasty fire for that very reason just 2 months ago.


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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I agree with Rick that an engineer should look at that to determine it’s acceptable (I posted the same under a dupe post in the Structural forum) … and I am surprised by some of the comments, even from some veterans … icon_rolleyes.gif


I understand the desire to help someone, but does anyone here know the condition or capacity of the structural floor joists the homeowner is planning on putting over a ton of load on in a relatively small area? Yes, over a ton ... I roughed about better than 2,000# (water, rocks/sand, large glass tank, and hefty stand) and the homeowner confirmed that in another post.

Thats about 200 psf of loading ... far in excess of normal 30 psf to 40 psf residential floor loading ... ... And supplementary supports are not a simple thing, even if it looks that way. Does anyone understand existing member stress increases from forced deflection compatibility ... unless some very special procedures are used.

Very heavy loads like hot tubs, pianos, and water beds sometimes cause framing to sag ... even with "supplementary supports" ... and are the subject of lawsuits sometimes. Some waterbeds will load your floor to around 60 psf, which is a heavy load. Many apartment complexes will not even allow these do to the heavy loads, and that large fish tank will far exceed those loadings.

Even if that is installed without a failure, it might push the framing right to the limit where all it takes is a straw to break the camels back. And some framing does fail suddenly if seriously overloaded ... so filling it and taking a look is a really really really bad idea. Trust me on that one, I am also a structural engineer and things do go wrong ... look at the quote below my signature line.

Who is that homeowner going to look to if he does encounter a problem, or if what he did really isn't acceptable?


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: rmagee
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Not to pick on the author of the original post however I suggest that everyone who advised the homeowner that this did not really require an engineering plan look at the recent photo with the jack post installed.


The post has been inserted upside down by the homeowner. Probably not a big deal but the box these come in specifically indicates which side is supposed to be up. The manufacturer provides instructions for a reason. With the narrow end down an impact has a greater chance of knocking the post out of place. Are you all comfortable with the way the jack post is under one end of the new beam and not providing any support to the other end? Maybe two jack posts were required for a beam that long or perhaps the jack post should have been centered, who would know unless they were a structural engineer?

As it turns out some of the floor joists carrying the new load do not rest on the concrete block wall at all, but are supported by a header over the passageway into what appears to be a laundry area. Was the header exposed to see what size it was or if one even exists?

This is the problem with providing homeowners or buyers with advise on how to conduct repairs or alterations. You might know how to do the job right but will the homeowner execute your instructions properly?

I was taught that the most powerful words in an inspectors vocabulary are "I don't know". Unless you are willing to assume a lot of potential liability don't give repair advise. Evaluate and recommend that the buyer consult a qualified professional.


--
Rick Magee
Building Check Ltd.
Fredericton, N.B. Canada
1-506-454-3332
bcheck@nbnet.nb.ca
"check with a professional"

Originally Posted By: contech24
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thanks guys for all the help. Heh the jack isnt in place yet, but im glad you told me, now i can go back and flip it to the right place. i will provide extra beams under the current post. the dimension for the joist are 3 x 7, not sure if that can give better estimates.


I tried to get a structural engineer out here, but no one ever returns my call. ![icon_sad.gif](upload://nMBtKsE7kuDHGvTX96IWpBt1rTb.gif)


Originally Posted By: contech24
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icon_rolleyes.gif