Originally Posted By: rpalac This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Bob
Do you feel as though there is adequate protection between the breaker an the device unit. For example you run from the panel in a utility room a piece of #10 A/C cable to the garage where there is a lot of activity and across the wall to the Compressor location. Elmo the guy with the torches who helps me from time to time in my chop shop is not watching his plumber crack but when he inadvertently knocks over some stolen lolly columns from the the now unsupported sport stadium. As they fall they hit the A/C cable denting the casing to short the conductors but only enough to cause marginal impedance. Elmo in the commotion smiles as he watches the chain reaction of lolly columns hit the three stolen out houses and the cadaver pops out of the last out house. Elmo so over taken by this turns to Bruno to say “SEE”. Not knowing his torch is burning the A/C cable heating the insulation within that is THHN. It does not completely melt and go to ground but once again is a high impedance hot spot.
Is the 70 amp breaker really protecting this #10 when we put a load on it, or will; it heat up and catch the coat rack of borrowed Zinnman Furs that are next to the medical anesthetist canisters we just happen to have temporarily left there while unloading the Brinks truck.
Originally Posted By: dhartke This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Do all AC condenser units have thermal overloads? I ask because I recently read to “look out for added thermal overloads” while inspecting the AC, this would be a Band-Aid for a dying unit.
Originally Posted By: jrabanus This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hello all!
I was gone for a day so I was not able to see the post. Richard, the whole situation at this place was this: there was a 30 amp breaker that had a #12 wire going into it. There was no documentation on the panel as to where it goes to or what it does. So, whether if it a dedicated line or not hard to tell. I errored on the side of safety and told my friend to call out a different electrician to look up local codes and to trace this circuit.
Bob Badger and everyone else thanks for all the great post!
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Also consider that while a #12 wire is normally limited to 20A on a branch circuit, the actual capacity is higher.
Typical MN cable usually has wires with THHN insulation, which has a 90C insulation rating that would be allowed to carry a 30A load. The model codes also have provisions for further increasing that rating under "engineering supervision" and there are provisions for allowing rounding up to the next size breaker, so actually a #10 wire on a 40A breaker is not that far fetched (and allowed by model codes in certain cases for AC/motor loads). Look at tap conductors, where the codes allow a short 20A tap connected to a 50A appliance feeder/breaker (another post also) ... 
However, the outer sheathing of MN is rated a little lower, so the codes limit the overall capacity to 25A mostly to keep the outer sheathing cool. Then they further reduce that to 20A as a small branch circuit. I agree with that in general, but the reality is that the wire is actually good for more than 20A.
As an HI you really can't cross that "line in the sand" and should be listing a #10 wire on anything other than a 20A breaker as something that needs to be further evaluated by an electrical professional (assuming it's not on an AC circuit where that would normally be allowed). But dont be completely surprised if that professional comes back with a response that it is okay ... 
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Mike Parks wrote:
I will keep saying this. Be damn careful on what you say.
I second that notion. The evaluation/codes discussions here are for general knowledge only, and to sometimes help one find that "line in the sand". An HI can end up with egg on their face, or maybe worse, if they are not careful about how they report things.
I have been on the professional side of that a few times and its never a pretty sight (actually one of them was with a buyers HI on a house I sold ... they had no idea I was a building engineer and inspector ... lol). I know the HI position, but others may not be so understanding.
The point is learn more than you need to know, and report less than you could to avoid crossing that "line in the sand" ... there is a very slippery slope on the other side ... 
Just my 2-nickles
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: dbowers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
It was real mind boggling to say the least to read all the posts on this subject. Lotta Gum Flapping, but the Bottom line - on an air conditioning unit the data tag rules. Period. Can you always err on the consevative side - absolutely YES. Put larger wires on the circuit if you want to, or downsize the breaker if that is applicable. But if the circuit is for an air conditioner, and if it is wired according to the data tag, and if the data tag allows this configuration - and if you call it out as wrong almost ANY knowledgeable electrician, HVAC contractor, or other inspector will be quite happy to show the people the CODE BOOK and explain the dumb old HI don’t know crap about this.
If you were doing an inspection for a buyer with a pushy realestator or seller, that immediately casts doubt on your knowledge about anything else in your report and can ultimately hurt your buyer. Remember the old DRAGNET TV Show and Detective Joe Friday - "Just the facts, nothing but the facts".
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
“code compliant”
I don't know about you but those words tend to worry me. I don't understand why anyone would question the integrity of an inspector that would question the "minimum standard".
Having been an inspector for some time, I see the minimum standard all the time. As a general rule, I call it if I don't like it, this would fall under one of those "things I don't like to see", whether it is code compliant or not.
In my book, there is nothing wrong with making it safer.
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Joe M.,
I guess it comes down to what you call it.
IF you call it "wrong", you will be "wrong".
IF you call it "I think it should be blah-blah-blah to be safer.", well, who can argue with that? They can argue that it isn't needed or required (you did not say it was 'needed or required', just that it would be "safer") and they would be correct, but you would not be "wrong".
Originally Posted By: dbowers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Guys - Jerry Peck said it beautifully. If you want to suggest that in your opinion there is another way to do something that you think is better or safer or more efficient - terrific - do so. But when you call something out as wrong that the Codes or Manufacturers Specs say is OK, you just damage your own credibility or your clients ability to negotiate.
Many times as soon as we get done with an inspection the realestators or sellers immediately start looking for ways to cast doubts on your report or your knowledge. Don't give it to them. You can accomplish what you want to do by just the proper wording of your report.
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dan,
I have found one of the best ways to handle a situation like this is to ask the other "inspector" to put it in writing that this issue is ok. While many will argue it is alright and even code compliant, most have to stop and think about the liability about the minimum standard work that was installed and just go ahead and fix it to make it better.
I do not make claims to be the best or even the smartest inspector but then again I put it in writing and I simply want the same from someone that would contradict my opinion.
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
dbowers wrote:
Bottom line - on an air conditioning unit the data tag rules. Period.
Very true as long as it's a dedicated AC circuit, but there are some limits.
Josh indicated it's not known if the #12/30A is an AC circuit, so there is not much you can say about it other than it's a concern and may need to be checked out by a professional.
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: jrabanus This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Here is an interesting thought. What If there was an designation for this circuit such as: A/C? What would you say on the report? Would you recommend that a electricain comes out to trace the lines so that they are not spliced into anything else and if it follows local codes?
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Pronunciation: 'grA
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English gr[AE]g; akin to Old High German grIs, grAo gray
1 a : of the color gray b : tending toward gray <blue-gray eyes> c : dull in color
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Sorry, couldn't resist.
1) If something is not right, is it wrong?
Or,
2) If something is not wrong, is it right?
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
roconnor wrote:
Josh indicated it's not known if the #12/30A is an AC circuit, so there is not much you can say about it other than it's a concern and may need to be checked out by a professional.
I'm surprised the real answer has not been given (or maybe it was and I just forgot that it was).
Real, correct, answer: (change wording to suit your style)
There is a 30 amp breaker with 12 AWG (20 amp rated) wire in it. This may, or may not be, acceptable, depending on what this circuit is for. HOWEVER, the circuit is required to be identified as to what it is for and it was not. WHEN THE ELECTRICAL CONTRACTOR properly identifies this circuit, have them address the breaker / conductor sizing question.
I don't say it that way, but that gets the point across. And they cannot say you are "wrong" as you will be exactly correct.
Originally Posted By: dbowers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Robert - You’re correct of course in what you said about this situation, however I was addressing some of the posts regarding if this was an A/C circuit.