Robert…you are correct. The lock is for the lower twin breaker only.
Man…I wish my wife could understand what I mean as well as you do!! :D: cool:
Robert…you are correct. The lock is for the lower twin breaker only.
Man…I wish my wife could understand what I mean as well as you do!! :D: cool:
No it doesn’t connect the upper and lower twin breakers, and simply is used to lock breakers in a certain position. Usually they are made to be reversible and can either lock it “on” or “off” (there appears to also be a depression in this one where the “off” position would be).
They are more common in commercial panels. For residential work they are usually installed to lock a breaker “off” while equipment is being worked on … or I guess they could be hooked up to lock “on” a circuit for grandmas heart-lung machine …
Also, the requirement for a breaker to internally tip under overload even if the handle is jammed, has been around as long as I can remember. The FPE breakers apparently were just made poorly.
JMO & 2-nickels …
I hadn’t thought of that…but I don’t think so.
It really looks like an obstruction more than a linking device. Also…if you take a look at the (bad) picture you will see that the lower twin breaker would shut off with a downward throw (if the lock wasn’t there)…but the upper breaker would need to be thrown upward to shut it off. Can’t see how a linking device could accomplish that…but I’m not a mechanical engineer…far from it.
P.S. One other thing to mention is that the service panel with the two twin 90A breakers does have at least one defect. The top twin breakers are “on” in the down position, which is incorrect. The “ON” breaker marking will read “NO” and be in the down position that is usually expected to be 'off" … even though it’s energized.
Breakers have to be installed either sideways, or when in a vertical position “down” must always be “off” …
Robert,
Do you know when this became the standard? If the house was built before then would you still report it?
Thanks to everyone for your outstanding input. This is what the message board is all about!!
Now it is time to stand up and be counted. I have to issue the report tonight. Please reply to this informal poll with your FINAL ANSWER (and no life lines) about what you think the size of this service is or how it should be reported.
Is this a 90 amp or 180 amp service?
Robert O: 180 amps
Russel R.: 90 capable of being 180 amps (updated)
Richard M: 180 amps (updated)
Todd A: 180 amps (updated)
Gerry B: ?? amps
Jeff P. ?? amps
Paul A. 90 amp per panel location (updated)
Joey D ?? amps
Ed Schwartz: TWO 90 amps capable of being 180 amps (updated)
Anyone else ?? amps
180 amps.
(I wouldn’t worry too much about the underground lateral to the meter. We never get to see those cables.)
I’m going with 225 maximum amps via the 3/0 conductor, limited to 200 maximum amps by the meter, limited to 180 amps by the circuit breakers if, and only if, they are wired in parallel; otherwise, 90 amps.
It’s a 180 amp panel:D
lol…see what happens when I stay away with family for a day…lol…I get to the end of a conversation…thehehe
Ok…based on what I see…lol…you have (2) 90A Services and I would probably list it as such…combined capacity of ( what I would list ) 180A for this dwelling as I see it installed based on the images.
I reserve the right to VISIT it and see it on Russel Rays Expense.
Oh, my employees ain’t gonna like you. You’re using up their margarita fund.
lol…I thought that was just your fund…lol…YOU SHARE IT…dang…
It’s well beyond a home inspection to research if something is technically a code violation or not (when was it installed, what standards/codes do apply, local standards, alternate designs, etc.). Therefore home inspectors will typically use an SOP and “current construction standards” (e.g. current building codes, industry references, etc.) as a guide. So I would flag it as a concern based on current construction standards.
For reporting on this panel/service, and other things, where you are unsure how to report something just describe what you see and provide your recommendations based on that. It appears that a licensed professional needs to be called in on this house anyway based on the concerns/defects, so let them also make the call if there is a question about capacity or relative hazard of leaving the present orientation of one of the main shut-off switches. Then ya call it a day, and go have a frosty one …
“Observe and Report” … thats the job …
Wow, great thread.
My vote is a 200 amp service as long as the service panel (the one with the two 90 amp breakers in it) is rated for at least 200 amps.
Here is my thinking: The service is the lowest of the 1) service entrance conductor rating (225a in this case), 2) meter rating (200a in this case), 3)meter enclosure rating (200a in this case), 4) service panel rating (unsure of it rating), or 5) main breaker rating.
If one calls the two 90 amp breakers “main breakers”, than the answer is a 180 service. If one determines that there is no main breaker (as in a split buss panel), than the answer is a 200 amp service. It does not make sense to me that there can be two “main breakers” in a panel, so that’s why I am going with 200 amps. Of course the maximum current draw through the system is limited to 180 if everything operates correctly.
Please note that this line of thinking is a strict following of the HI rules for determining the capacity of an electrical service. Maybe there should be another line in the determination sequence that states" in the case of a split bus or similar panel where there is no main breaker, the service rating is the lower of the panel rating or the sum of the circuit breaker ratings.
Remember…I said (2) 90A services…with a possible 180A upgrade…be careful when you inform a person that have 180A service…or anything when you know the service has (2) 90A individual services…can be misleading as it is NOT a simple thing to upgrade to 200A in this case…( since the wire is actually rated for 225 at the meter to disconnect )…
Putting down they have 180A or can be upgraded to 200A service would be misleading since the actual service here is 90A per panel location…very important you explain it out to them in the report versus just putting 180A upgraded…not really what I said in my post…
So I’m still at 90 amps, capable of being 180, 200, or 225 amps.
Yes…Thats what I was saying…Russel said it more direct…obviously a few martini’s later…thehehehe
OK,
I think it is clear that there are two, separate 240v 90 amp breakers, right?
So that means that there is a 180amp capacity.
But if you had an appliance that was rated at…100amps (big big stove), you would be in trouble.
I vote for two separate 90amp services…
Great thread.
Ed
Correct…Ed
Which still leaves me at 90 amps, capable of being upgraded relatively easily and inexpensively to 200A using the meter as the limiting factor and 225A using the 3/0 as the limiting factor. After that, we’re looking at some serious money, I think. So I’m still stuck at 90A.