Originally Posted By: rray This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Here’s a panel setup that I am totally unfamiliar with. There were only three circuit breakers. The top right one was labeled “service disconnect,” 200 amps. The bottom right one was labeled “service disconnect, lower section,” also 200 amps. The left one was for the oven. Could someone (like Dennis and other sparkies) tell me exactly what I am looking at here? I’ll have Scotty beam some margaritas over to ya!
Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Russ,
It appears that you have a 200 amp main panel that is using and additional 200 amp breaker to feed a subpanel. In this case, your service should be sized and rated for 400 amps minimum. Therefore, the wires coming into the panel from the meter should be twice as big as the wires going to and coming from the twin 200 amp breakers. Wire gauge would be 500 mcm minimum for a 400 amp service.
It almost looked like a split bus configuration at first, which are rare anymore. However, the second breaker has wires leading up to and out a piece of SE cable. Is there another panel in the building? From the looks of it, that is probably the case. I would need more info to make a solid decision on this one. If there is not another panel someplace....then whoa.
What size is that range breaker? It looks like you also have aluminum wire attached to these breakers. If you do that wire should be coated with De-ox to prevent oxidation. If it is aluminum wiring, it may be that the wire coming from the range breaker is a little light for the load if that is a 60 amp breaker. I would need wire size to give you a accurate decison on that one.
Also, it appears to be a main lug panel with a 200 amp breaker that is back feeding the panel, or trying to act like a main breaker. I am assuming that there is a set of wires coming in at the top from the meter. Then there is a set of wires tapped off of those mains, and fed to the bottom breaker. That then would be the disconnect for the panel. Shutting it off should de-energize both panels. Either way it appears you are running two 200 amp panels, and therefore, current would be additive, or in other words, the main feeders must be a minimum of 400 amps. I would recommend that it be inspected by a California sparky who is not under the influence of margaritas. How big is this house too? The type of setup you have there would be common in a industrial/commercial environment. Anyway that is my best shot at this until I get more info.
-- This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.
Originally Posted By: Steve Alexander This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
You really need to show the whole panel as there are more branch wires coming into that box than there are breakers. Looks to me like the main cable is connected to the top breaker.
Originally Posted By: rray This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I didn’t think it was 400A service. I thought it was 200A service with a 200A breaker feeding a subpanel, which was present and which was where all the breakers, save the oven, were located. But I thought it unusual that the subpanel would also be 200A service, although not necessarily since all-minus-one breakers were in the subpanel. Did the electrician simply use a spare 200A breaker and appropriate wire because he ran out?
I also thought it looked like a split bus configuration when I first opened the panel, but I decided against it upon further observation.
The oven breaker was 40A. The multi-strand aluminum wires everywhere were coated with de-ox.
The house was 4,609 square footsies.
The extra wires coming into this panel were the wiring for two cooling condensers which were not present, so there are no other breakers other than those shown.
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dennis,
I for one have to say you have me lost on that one. 400 Amps? How are you figuring that? 200 plus 200 = 400. It looks to me like they originally had a main lug panel that is now being used as a main disconnect. Added the 200 amp breaker for a sub panel located elsewhere. Are you saying that this makes it a 400 amp service? I have to admit the possibility is there for the 400 amps but it obviously is not intended to be used as a service panel. It really looks like an electrician got lazy and added a breaker to the main disconnect panel, instead of the sub panel.
Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Joe… in this house they have two panels at 200 amps a piece. That would be the same as having two units in one house both with a 200 amp panel. In order to run two 200 amp panels, the service feeders must be rated for a minimum of 400 amps.
Take a double house for instance, where the upstairs is rented and the downstairs is rented. In the basement are two 100 amp panels. One for the upstairs and one for the downstairs. The service required to run two 100 amp panels would be 200 amps. There would be no way that you could run both 100 amp panels on a single 100 amp service. It would have to be the upstairs panel of 100 amps plus the downstairs panel of 100 amps....or 200 amps total.
In this picture, there is a main panel with a 200 amp main breaker. If that was the only panel used, then 200 amps on the service loop would be fine. However, there is another panel, protected by another 200 amp breaker. The range circuit in the first panel was more than likely placed there because the subpanel was full. Therefore, they are utilizing two 200 amp panels to run this house. There also looks like there are some addtional branch circuits in the panel that we cannot see. Without knowing everything about this house though, and just viewing the picture Russ gave me, I could only assume what was happening there.
Russ has now told me this house is 4609 sq ft. and I already know they are using a electric oven. Assuming that they have air conditioning, they would need at least 2 air conditioners to cool a house of that size. I also assumed that a house that size surely has a microwave, a disposal, a dishwasher, and at least 2 small appliances. Without adding a electric dryer or any other appliances, my load calculation on this house is 212 amps. Would a single 200 amps service run this house safely?
Did I take 200+200 to come up with 400? Yes I did...but the explanation for doing such is stated above. If the 200 amp breaker protecting the subpanel was only 100 amps, then I would be ok with a 200 amp service. But as you can see...you have two 200 amp breakers with each protecting it's own panel. If I had all the info on this house, all appliances used and what type of energy they are using to run those appliances, I could give Russ a exact number as far as the ampacity required to safely run the load of the house. Right now, looking at the pic alone...I can only assume what I am seeing....and therefore, state that a minimum of a 400 amp service is required.
-- This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.
Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Well Russ…recommend that a qualified electrician inspects the panels and service for the proper ampacities to run this house. What I am seeing in the pic…are two panels…one a subpanel protected by a 200 amp breaker and the other, a main panel protected by a 200 amp breaker. The main panel is being used to a point with the range breaker, and obviosuly now I know that at one time they also had 2 cooling condensers also utilized in the main panel. However those are disconnected now, and therefore, 200 amps on the service might be sufficient. However, who is to say that the new owners will not hook up those cooling condensers. Or who is to say they would not add anything else to the main panel, seeing the subpanel is full. A hot tub or perhaps a garage service of 60 amps to run a small workshop…anything is possible. A house that size is marginal with just 200 amps of power coming in…add anything to the panels and 200 amps now becomes insufficient. The only way I could qualify this house for 200 amps is if the subpanel was protected by a 100 amp breaker and the entire house appliances were gas versus electric. The general lighting and small appliance load on a house that size is 40 amps. Make everything gas except the range and you are ok with 200 amps. Add two electric air conditioners at 4 tons a peice and now you are at 118 amps. Add a electric dryer and utoh…you are at 141 amps…add a dishwasher and disposal…and you are at…152 amps…now lets add the range in…cuz I haven’t included it yet…whoa…now you are at 190 amps…let us not forget the hot tub the new owner puts in plus a mixer for his margaritas…ahh forget it…at 190 amps…your right there…a marginal 200 amp service…add anything else and you exceed the 200 amps coming into the house. Thus, if all that I listed here is in the house and those appliances are electric…you are right there…a marginal 200 amp service…don’t take my word for it…get one of them California sparkies to do their wizardry with it…it might be fine with 200 amps…but then I don’t know everything this house has in it.
– This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.
Originally Posted By: rray This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Probably in about 75% of the homes we build here, linesets and electrical for cooling condensers are installed but the condensers are not, as was done here. That’s the nature of the weather we have.
Note that it is not full, which puzzled me as to why they would put the oven breaker in the exterior panel. Maybe the electrician did the load calculations and determined that the subpanel could not handle the oven?
This house also had high-voltage landscape lighting, an extensive automatic irrigation system, gas water heater, two gas furnaces, two garage vehicle door openers, washer, gas dryer, gas cook top, electric oven, two disposals, dishwasher, kitchen hood/fan/light, microwave, refrigerator, trash compactor, six bedrooms, five bathrooms, library, living room, dining room, family room, and two 2-car garages (one garage had been converted to a game room).
Also, new owners are wanting to add a swimming pool.
Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Well looks like 200 amps is fine based on that info Russ. Only electric appliance is the oven…that would be specific to load calcs. The other panel, a 200 amp main lug panel, is fine. They even did it right…no bond to neutral to can and a separate ground bar fed with a ECG from the main I hope. Sometimes, panels can be deceiving as in this case. With the further info though, I am sure any sparky would say 200 amps is cool. Even with the addition of a swimming pool. However, where is the air conditioning…or were they too poor to put it in after they built that castle
Anyway I figured the load on the house based on the info you gave me without air conditioning and I come up with....84 amps. They could safely put in a pool as well as a hot tub. However, if there is air conditioning and it is electrical.....that changes everything.
They might have had an easier run to the oven from the other panel and therefore they put it in that panel....otherwise, I don't have a clue about that one.
Yourrrrrrrrrright though....very unusual panel for that house. Mostly a overkill if you ask me....They could have done it all with a single 200 amp panel. Perhaps they intended on a few different things and then changed their minds downstream. Good call on this one Russ. Have a margarita on me
So this is a perfect example as to why a sparky would benefit you HI's. Without knowing all the info about this panel or house, it can be decieving. A house that size with mostly electrical appliances would require 200 amps minimum and on up to 400 amps. Being mostly gas is a plus for this house and I just bet it's electrical bills are low. Very efficeint to run but then with the price of gas these days.... As it stands, with no a/ or any addtional electrical...this house could safely run on a 100 amp panel and service.
Also Russ, with 40 amps for the range, the wire size is sufficeint that is in the pic.....also when I did the load calcs, seeing the range was only 40 amps, I figured it at the low end for the range or 8KW.
-- This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.
Originally Posted By: rray This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I did think it was overkill for the house, in spite of its size.
As far as air conditioning, a lot of the higher end homes along the coast have all the wiring and plumbing installed for the condenser but quite often the condenser is not installed because air conditioning is only needed a few days out of the year. However, some people like it cold; one of my previous employers always kept his place at about 60?F. I hated going over to his place.
I have a mountain-side home in East County where it is about 20? hotter than the coast, and I only use my air conditioning a couple of weeks a year, when the hot, dry Santa Ana winds come through. There usually is always a nice breeze rolling up and down the mountain sides, and although we do have a lot of beaches, this county is not flat by any stretch of the imagination.
Originally Posted By: jmcginnis This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hey Russ…
Help me out here… it appears from you pic that the lower 200 amp breaker is feeding the lugs up above which in turn feed the upper 200 amp breaker which in turn is connected to 4/0 aluminum SER Cable which would suggest it goes out to a “subpanel”… I can’t see in your pic where the conductors from the electric meter connect to power the whole system up …
Originally Posted By: rray This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
The conductors from the electric meter are coming in at the far right. In the picture you can follow them in, down, and up to the top breaker, which was labeled “service disconnect.” It does look strange, which is why I posted this.
Originally Posted By: jmcginnis This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Russ… that’s why I asked… things may be different in California but that cable is SER cable and in PA it’s only used “after” a breaker and not “before”… it differs from SE cable because it has an insulated neutral (grounded conductor) and then a bare grounding conductor along with the 2 ungrounded (hot) conductors… SE cable only has the 2 hot conductors and an uninsulated neutral …SE cable is normally used before or ahead of the main breaker… are you sure that that cable is not feeding a sub panel somewhere or that there is not another main breaker near the meter base feeding the whole system?
Originally Posted By: rray This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
There was a subpanel in the laundry room.
For anyone wondering, this has all been taken care of as far as my Client is concerned because of my discussion at the site and my recommendations. This post and thread is for my own education.
I actually think that the disconnects were mislabeled. I think the upper breaker, labeled "service disconnect," is powering the subpanel in the laundry room, which would explain the SER cable. I think the lower breaker, labeled "service disconnect lower section," is the main service disconnect.
Originally Posted By: jmcginnis This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Ok… if you don’t mind Russ… I’d like to continue to sort this out… I am very curious about this installation… it appears in the pic that the lower breaker is then feeding up to the lugs above (although only 1 lug is completely visible) Is this the case? If so … what is powering those lugs? I would love to be able to see behind that gray piece of panel in the way of the upper lug…
Originally Posted By: rray This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Every underground installation I’ve come across so far has the service entrance cable invisible. It seems to be attached to some flat, wrench-like, aluminum bars somewhere which are then attached to the lugs. The lugs then power a breaker, in this case, I believe, the lower breaker. The upper breaker here then seems to be pulling power from the bussbar and feeding the subpanel.
Originally Posted By: jmcginnis This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Ok…if that’s the case, Russ… then this must be a split bus or the lower breaker would be useless since the copper buses are bolted to the same bars as the lugs right above the upper breaker…it all makes sense to me if it is a split bus…and they are feeding the lower bus thru the lower breaker…
Originally Posted By: rray This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I’m not following you, Jack.
However, note that the upper breaker was labeled "service disconnect" and the lower breaker was labeled "service disconnect lower section."
It obviously does not look like a typical split buss. Is this a new type of split buss with an "upper section" and a "lower section."
Why can't the upper breaker be powering a subpanel? What would be the difference if it were a 100A breaker powering the subpanel, or a 60A breaker powering the subpanel? Isn't this just a bigger breaker? I admit that I don't see too many (read, none) 200A subpanels out here.
Originally Posted By: jmcginnis This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Ok… let me explain a bit… the way I see it… the upper breaker is supplying a subpanel somewhere and is connected to the bars above with those screws thru the copper… then the bus splits right under that breaker and the lower breaker sits right at the top of the lower bus and feeds that lower bus… that lower breaker is fed from the conductors that go to the lugs above… if it is not a split bus… then the lower portion is fed twice… once thru the lower breaker and again thru the copper bars that are screwed to the bars that the lugs are attached to… this would render the lower breaker useless… if the bus isn’t split then the entire bus is fed from where the copper is attached to the bars where the lugs also are attached…I hope you can follow this If not I will be glad to private email you my cell phone number and we can discuss it…
Well looks like 200 amps is fine based on that info Russ. Only electric appliance is the oven…that would be specific to load calcs. The other panel, a 200 amp main lug panel, is fine. They even did it right…no bond to neutral to can and a separate ground bar fed with a ECG from the main I hope. Sometimes, panels can be deceiving as in this case. With the further info though, I am sure any sparky would say 200 amps is cool. Even with the addition of a swimming pool. However, where is the air conditioning…or were they too poor to put it in after they built that castle 
If not I will be glad to private email you my cell phone number and we can discuss it…