Anyone offer foundation measurement?

[jrobinson11 (Joseph G. Robinson)]

@cevans

You need to (you don’t really “need” to but it’s beneficial to your client if you do) tell the next guy how to duplicate your measurements and everybody needs to have a basis to compare the two results, including Bubba the foundation guy, who isn’t loading all of this into a spreadsheet to produce a simulated 3D map, along with the homeowner.

Designating a zero reference doesn’t preclude you from doing any of the measurements or graphs that you are doing. However, that’s just thoughts from a guy who doesn’t do these except of relatively rare occasions, hardly an authoritative opinion.

Yeah I get your point. After I check all the surfaces I re-zero the device on the highest point and measure from there. For example I measured a home yesterday and the carpet was the highest point of measurement. It was in the family room which is oriented at center rear elevation on the home. I could probably measure 32 points of each carpeted room and get the highest point of the high points, and zero from there also. But after making all measurements and also calculating for surface differences, I then zero the whole chart out by adding or subtracting from the minimal deviation. That zero’s the whole of all the measurements out for the sake of the spreadsheet and the graphical representation.

I have to explain to the client often times because the chart greatly exaggerates the differences in height of the slab, that no it would really be quite boring to take out all the carpet and flooring, open up the walls and try to use the home for a skateboard rink. You will not typically see with the naked eye or feel the difference in the grade in reality.

[escanlan (Emmanuel Scanlan, TREC# 7593)]

@jrobinson11

Imagine this:

I sit my zip level by the stop sign on the corner of the street and zero it out.

Next I check all floor surfaces and record and differences.

Next I record 32 points each within 20 foot of previous and each side.

Then I place them on a chart and zero the chart so that all measurements are from the lowest point. If the lowest point were 72and 3/10" high and I subtract 72 and 3/10 from all the numbers. then I am zeroed on that point. And it is not necessarily at the zip level out on the street by the stop sign on the corner of the street. Correct?

I’m having a very hard time imagining why you are including a point distant to the slab for any of the level analysis measurements of the actual slab? Possibly if you point me to the procedure you are using it could help explain what method/procedure you are using for the analysis. Do you have a link to that procedure?

[jrobinson11 (Joseph G. Robinson)]

How is it that you do yours? Where do you provide a zero reference for your measurements? Please share. Knowledge is power, but sharing knowledge brings peace.

[escanlan (Emmanuel Scanlan, TREC# 7593)]

@jrobinson11

How is it that you do yours? Where do you provide a zero reference for your measurements? Please share. Knowledge is power, but sharing knowledge brings peace.

The Foundation Performance Association (FPA) has written a very good publication called Guidelines For The Evaluation Of Foundation Movement For Residential And Other Low-Rise Buildings which can be found here http://www.foundationperformance.org/projects/FPA-SC-13-1.pdf .

This publication has been written by Engineers and foundation repair companies and includes a standardized method of performing a slab level analysis. This method is used by Engineers and foundation repair companies with slight variations as they feel needed.

If you have another procedure that I am not aware of it would be interesting to read and understand how your process functions.

[jrobinson11 (Joseph G. Robinson)]

foundationperformance.org is a great resource. Look I have no desire to be a replacement for a professional foundation engineer. That would be irresponsible, unprofessional, and be doing my clients quite a disservice. That is not how I operate. I do however want and desire to use an instrument rather than my eyeball, a 3’ level, or my guy feeling, to be able to in a consistent and repeatable fashion, assist myself in making an observation, and give myself some insight that may or may not be relevant when looked at as part of a larger picture which includes many other factors. After said observation being made I may then recommend a client seek the advice of a professional engineer to further investigate. I cam to nachi.org of which I am am a member to get an idea of any standards and tools other inspectors specifically in the Texas area and even more specifically in the area I am in where foundation issues tend to be quite prevelant. I asked if any other inspectors were doing foundation measurements. And I am getting the impression that you may have looked into it and decided not to. The logic I am using is that you have not really answered any of my questions but asked me a ton of questions about my process. The process I am using is really not of my own design. It was borrowed mostly from the Veterans Administration standard for inspection. Since it is not mine personally as I am working for someone else, I feel not at liberty without permission to completely share. Thank you for sharing the information from FPA I am familiar with it already.

[escanlan (Emmanuel Scanlan, TREC# 7593)]

@jrobinson11

foundationperformance.org is a great resource. Look I have no desire to be a replacement for a professional foundation engineer. That would be irresponsible, unprofessional, and be doing my clients quite a disservice. That is not how I operate. I do however want and desire to use an instrument rather than my eyeball, a 3’ level, or my guy feeling, to be able to in a consistent and repeatable fashion, assist myself in making an observation, and give myself some insight that may or may not be relevant when looked at as part of a larger picture which includes many other factors. After said observation being made I may then recommend a client seek the advice of a professional engineer to further investigate. I cam to nachi.org of which I am am a member to get an idea of any standards and tools other inspectors specifically in the Texas area and even more specifically in the area I am in where foundation issues tend to be quite prevelant. I asked if any other inspectors were doing foundation measurements. And I am getting the impression that you may have looked into it and decided not to. The logic I am using is that you have not really answered any of my questions but asked me a ton of questions about my process. The process I am using is really not of my own design. It was borrowed mostly from the Veterans Administration standard for inspection. Since it is not mine personally as I am working for someone else, I feel not at liberty without permission to completely share. Thank you for sharing the information from FPA I am familiar with it already.

So you have come here to “take” information and not “share” information, and want to make a play on my signature line?

You say the procedure is “borrowed mostly” from the Veteran’s Administration which is a Federal Government office who does not hide information, except their screw-ups of course. Hopefully this isn’t one of their screw-ups is it? Is there any reason why you can’t link to the VA procedure here and save others the time of trying to find a possible non-existent procedure?

BTW who is it that you’re working for that is so super secret that would not provide their procedure even to clients so they can understand how the level analysis is performed and how another in the future can use it to compare with their results? Is it one of the “If I tell you I would have to kill you!” type organizations? :roll:

[jrobinson11 (Joseph G. Robinson)]

Come on man! Really? There is no need for that. Are you joking? Serious? But I kind of saw it coming.
I gave you information to go by. What else do you want? Price sheets? List of clients? Marketing research methods? LOL it is perfectly in my mind reasonable the answers I gave you beyond that

1. It just gets into the uncomfortable realm for me to share someone else’s information.

2. We discussed verbally the methods formula’s used as well as where they were derived, along with all the various parties and sources of information being used. But I do not have all the supporting documentation as it is like I said not my own research.

3. If I worked for you, would you want me to go on NACHI and say “Hey everyone what services are you offering and at what price? I worked for PSInspection and here is what he offers and charges.” At some point it just became uncomfortable. In hind sight maybe I should have never asked anyone if they were measuring foundations.

What is the make and model BTW of the measuring device you use? Do you use a Zip Level?

[escanlan (Emmanuel Scanlan, TREC# 7593)]

@jrobinson11

Come on man! Really? There is no need for that. Are you joking? Serious? But I kind of saw it coming.
I gave you information to go by. What else do you want? Price sheets? List of clients? Marketing research methods? LOL it is perfectly in my mind reasonable the answers I gave you beyond that

Nobody has asked you for price sheets, list of clients, marketing methods, etc., and only a link to a procedure you appear to use that seems foreign or possibly even unknown. Your stretching your imagination to dramatize a simple request to share information that might even help others.

1. It just gets into the uncomfortable realm for me to share someone else’s information.

*From your posts"

“Been doing foundation measurements on my inspections”
“The process I am using is really not of my own design. It was borrowed mostly from the Veterans Administration standard for inspection.”

These are supposedly your inspections and you supposedly “borrowed” the procedures from someone else (purportedly the VA). yet the procedure is so super secret you apparently don’t share it with your own clients so they can understand how you derived the information and can not use it in the future for some other person who might perform a follow-up level analysis on the slab.*

2. We discussed verbally the methods formula’s used as well as where they were derived, along with all the various parties and sources of information being used. But I do not have all the supporting documentation as it is like I said not my own research.

If this is the procedure that you are using on your inspections, you are charging clients for the work, and you are expecting them to rely on the information, then how could you not have the supporting documentation to describe the procedure and explain its use? That would be like a Doctor who follows a checklist to perform heart surgery and if something isn’t per the checklist he just stops since he doesn’t know where, why, and how to proceed. Far fetched example? Not really as it demonstrates the importance of knowing the basis behind what you are doing.

3. If I worked for you, would you want me to go on NACHI and say “Hey everyone what services are you offering and at what price? I worked for PSInspection and here is what he offers and charges.” At some point it just became uncomfortable.

You need to stay on track with your analogies and compare apples to apples. Nobody is asking you for your prices but only information on a procedure I have not heard of for a slab level analysis. The FPA procedure is a standard that many follow that actually do the work of slab level analysis on an existing home. Standards are there for a very good reason!

In hind sight maybe I should have never asked anyone if they were measuring foundations.

*Maybe you should not have? What was your real motivation for posting this? It appears that it certainly was not to share information on possible new standards (if that is what it is suppose to be this method of yours)? You certainly did not need to post graphs, diagrams, and pictures to ask if anyone else is performing level analysis on slabs.
*
What is the make and model BTW of the measuring device you use? Do you use a Zip Level?

Answers above in blue italic.

So you say that you are familiar with the FPA procedure for performing slab level analysis on an existing home? Then let’s look at some important points. The first point is that the FPA procedure is a standard which is used by many, with slight modifications for their needs or process, that can be followed later by others on follow-up slab level analysis.

@jrobinson11

I sit my zip level by the stop sign on the corner of the street and zero it out.

You zero out your level at a stop sign down the street. Obviously if you are familiar with the FPA procedure they make a very good point that unless a reference point has been specifically engineered not to move in our ever shifting and moving soils that it is not a valid point to start any measurements from. The obvious reason is that point might move between the time you perform your level analysis and another performs a level analysis on the same slab.

Now we look at your posts as they are a bit incongruous. First you provide a set of graphs and a 2D contour map with no legend, no distance measurements, no supporting information to allow anyone to understand what you are measuring. Hopefully you do provide that to your clients so the diagram can actually be used in some way? For example to understand your work and for any actual level analysis later to be compared to?

Next is this exchange.

@jrobinson11

And a heave right in the middle with over 2" of deviation in the slab.

@escanlan

With regards to area P3/R5 what visible signs of movement were there at that point, immediately around that point, or at any distant location that would be connected to that point’s readings?

@escanlan

But were there any visible signs around that point and if so what signs?

@jrobinson11

None.

You claim that the slab has a “heave” in the center with over 2" of deviation and yet you have no signs near the “heave” of foundation movement. Foundation movement signs are typically visible with less than 1/2" of differential movement and yet you are reporting over 2" of heave with no signs? Anything is possible but this is highly improbable! The average human can detect a sloping floor that slopes 1" in 20’ and 2" of heave would at least leave signs of slab cracks, drywall cracks, skewed door frames, etc., etc., etc.

@escanlan

How many homes so far have you encountered that are not within acceptable tolerances?

@jrobinson11

Probably about twenty percent. Maybe a little more. Thing is we look at the whole picture, roof structure, freeze boards, soffits, wall cracks, doors, windows. Everything of course that one normally would without using a zip-level. All to discern weather the foundation appears to be preforming, beginning to fail, or failing. With the disclaimer that we recommend they consult with an engineer regarding any concerns.

You must encounter quite a few crappy newly built homes? Or are you saying 20% or more of some very small number that you have had the opportunity to inspect so far? What is interesting about this exchange are the following.

• You agree that you do not need a Zip Level to determine a home has experienced foundation movement.
• You use your results to make an engineering decision as to the degree of movement and performance of the slab Re “performing, beginning to fail, failing”. Are you a licensed Engineer? I did not find your name in the TSBPE roster?
• Your procedure that you later state is “consistent and repeatable”, and you use to make a definitive opinion of the foundations state, is then disclaimed and the client is told to seek the opinion of an actual licensed Engineer if there is a concern. It seems that if you flagged the foundation as anything other than “performing”, in your words “failing” or “failed” then it certainly seems there would be a concern. If you claim such a flawless procedure what need is there to “disclaim” anything?

@escanlan

With no other signs in the area of the “heave” how did you rule out the slab was not properly screed?

@jrobinson11

Sorry for the late reply.

I see there was a previous question about the zero reference point and also how do I rule out the foundation simply not being level.

The zero reference point is a complex question but I will try to explain.

1. I check the floor coverings for example carpet, tile, wood. Lucky enough so far with all the new home inspections, most of mine are just less than a year old. So there is not a massive cornucopia of different surfaces. Lets say that they have berber carpet and it is the tallest elevation, the wood and tile are both the same at minus .7" . I create a spreadsheet with 32 measuring points and as I measure I put the floor covering material. I make three tables of 32 points. One has the surfaces with for example carpet at 0 and wood and tile minus .7, Use excel to take my measurements and add the surface difference or lack there of to each point and there I have the actual real measurements. Then I zero that out so that if there was a dip somewhere then that is the zero point. All measurements then are a deviation from the zero of some value.
2. I never use the measured values to call out a foundation. The call out is consistent and has to do with the whole picture as you sort of eluded to in your line of questioning. “IF” the foundation is better than 1.5" of deviation, “AND” all the other signs exist such as: differential veneer wall cracks, extensive sheet rock cracks over; doors, windows, ceilings, sticking doors, windows out of alignment, cracks in foundation… the list goes on. Then the foundation may “appear to be failing” and recommendation to have it looked at by an engineer. Or say for example if the foundation appeared to have a 1.6" rise, be it cupped, heaved or whatever, but none of the other symptoms exist then that goes into the report. "On the day of inspection no extensive sheet rock cracks, differential veneer … blah blah blah,

@jrobinson11

But you see the thing about it is. I view the zip level only as a tool that gives one perspective and will be quick to admit that I have no idea of the foundation was poured flat to begin with. I can be a general reference point to be looked at later though and IMO much more useful in new home inspections.

Now I have questions regarding this set of statements by you.

• I simply asked how you determined that the slab was not screed properly and you attempted to provide your reasoning for determining that. Yet you make a statement to Chuck indicating that you have no idea whether the slab was properly screed or not and appear to intimate you have no method to determine this. Is there a reason you could not have just said that as a response to my question?
• If you can not tell if a slab has been properly screed then what do you use to determine if the slab was not originally poured out of level to begin with?
• If you can not tell the slab was properly screed or was not originally poured out of level then how can you tell the flooring was not laid on an uneven floor?

I think the most important thing here are these statements from you and your reply to Chuck.

@jrobinson11

We call out the foundation as suspect if it has 1.5" inches or greater measuring the standard deviation of 32 points within 20’ of each other. But really the heave of just over 2" was indiscernible without a zip-level

@jrobinson11

I never use the measured values to call out a foundation.

@cevans

Only by special request and usually only if there is a prior survey to compare to. Very rarely

You cannot determine movement from a single point in time measurement. You can determine that the foundation is not level - but not why. You need comparable measurements taken at the same locations at different points in time to determine movement. If you do not establish a zero reference and identify where your measurements are taken, the next guy to come behind you won’t be able to duplicate your measurement for comparison.

@jrobinson11

All valid points to a degree that I would not argue against any of them. Accept that I have tested the system I use and even with slight deviations such as what is typically obvious for example a floor tile that is obviously a few tenths higher than the other tiles around it, the results are closely duplicable, even without having the exact same points to measure. Also I have found that with older homes a heave for example found on the spreadsheet can often times show with an uncanny amount of accuracy, where a cracked cast iron sewer pipe might be located, just looking with a camera. But you see the thing about it is. I view the zip level only as a tool that gives one perspective and will be quick to admit that I have no idea of the foundation was poured flat to begin with. I can be a general reference point to be looked at later though and IMO much more useful in new home inspections.

@jrobinson11

I have to explain to the client often times because the chart greatly exaggerates the differences in height of the slab, that no it would really be quite boring to take out all the carpet and flooring, open up the walls and try to use the home for a skateboard rink. You will not typically see with the naked eye or feel the difference in the grade in reality.

The points to be made are:

• You “call out the foundation as suspect if it has 1.5” inches or greater measuring the standard deviation of 32 points within 20’ of each other.". But you “never use the measured values to call out a foundation.” and yet you have to use something to determine the level differences when using a “call out” in inches. So your explanations are a bit incongruous are they not?
• You obviously revere Chuck and admitted that you are aware your level analysis diagrams are “I can be a general reference point to be looked at later though and IMO much more useful in new home inspections.”. In other words you agree with Chuck, and so many Engineers and foundation repair people that without a baseline measurement before yours then yours is now the baseline that might be used in the future to determine if any foundation movement has occurred by comparing it to those future foundation analysis. That is if your process is known to others which you appear to choose to keep secret for some reason. Is that so the consumer must call you back for another paid level analysis to determine if anything has changed?
• You also state “I have to explain to the client often times because the chart greatly exaggerates the differences in height of the slab”. Why would you need to do this if the client is not concerned about the results? After all you are (or are you) using your results to help make an engineering opinion that the slab is “performing”, “beginning to fail” or “failing”?

What it all boils down to is that a slab level analysis can be a useful tool to determine slab movement when properly performed and a previous baseline is available for comparison. Your descriptions, words, procedure appear to be significantly incongruous and makes a person really wonder about the value of this service you are providing. I certainly hope for the consumers sake you are fully explaining all of this to them instead of just freaking them out? :roll:

[jrobinson11 (Joseph G. Robinson)]

Apparently you lost some sleep over this and possibly missed the opportunity to do some inspections, maybe make some money. Maybe things are slow over at PSI? But I do appreciate your feedback minus the sarcasm.

Yes the zip level is a tool and only a small part of the bigger picture. At this point I am simply scanning your replies. Not out of any disrespect for your extensive efforts, but simply because I have a schedule to keep and it is busy. Did I miss your answer to my question about what instrument you are using to ascertain the possibility of a foundation issue?

“Call out” was not the right term. I believe I misled you into thinking I “Call out” any foundation with more than 1.5" of deviation. Actually I attempted to clear that out. the measurement is only one piece of evidence. Others are Differential veneer wall cracks <¼”wide. Extensive sheet rock cracks over doors, windows and ceilings. Cracks in the foundation wider than ¼”. Trim and siding separating from the structure. Windows moving out of alignment between the frame and wall. Sticking or out of square doors
Separation of counter tops and cabinets from the structure. Sometimes the other evidence points likewise to the same conclusion.

I always advise that the client can and should seek the advice of a professional engineer to address any concerns they may have.

I’m not trying to make a secret process. I have been open about it. 32 measurements on the foundation the reference is where I zero the zip level out. Apparently you missed the relevance I tried to make by point out the idea of measuring from the stop sign on the street corner. All measurements are referenced to a point that is calculated then the results are zero summed. So that you are looking at the lowest point as zero and then all the points of measure are shown from there.

Yes I am working for someone and the equipment is theirs. I asked lots of questions about the method being used and the conclusions that can be made from reviewing the results. But I did not ask for a photocopy of any and all supporting documentation. I am seriously considering a zip level in my set of tools as I do see value in it. Admittedly it is better to have a baseline from sometime after the slab was poured and cured. Now that would be a great subject of discussion.

I am very careful to explain to my client that I am using the tool for my own analysis and that it is a small part of a larger picture. I am careful to point out that they seek advice from an engineer regarding concerns they may have and that I have no way of telling if what I am seeing now is what I would have seen in the past as I have no baseline to go by.

A slab level analysis can be a useful tool to determine slab movement when properly performed and a previous baseline is available for comparison.

No doubt about it. Without a baseline is it useful? Now there is a question worth considering. I think it is. I believe it would be a far stretch to use the results to help formulate an “engineering opinion” but I think it can help me to determine what my opinion is.

Yes I have done a few of these or worked with someone in doing them. Maybe about ~30 and probably have seen six that showed greater than 1.5" were those “called out” as deficient? Nope, I also use another instrument. My eyeballs.

You know honestly I think it would not be a bad idea to require a baseline slab measurement following some agreed upon, standardized process. Maybe a third party to do the slab analysis I’m thinking a lot could be learned from this. It is a shame that it is not.

[escanlan (Emmanuel Scanlan, TREC# 7593)]

@jrobinson11

Apparently you lost some sleep over this and possibly missed the opportunity to do some inspections, maybe make some money. Maybe things are slow over at PSI? But I do appreciate your feedback minus the sarcasm.

Yes the zip level is a tool and only a small part of the bigger picture. At this point I am simply scanning your replies. Not out of any disrespect for your extensive efforts, but simply because I have a schedule to keep and it is busy. Did I miss your answer to my question about what instrument you are using to ascertain the possibility of a foundation issue?

“Call out” was not the right term. I believe I misled you into thinking I “Call out” any foundation with more than 1.5" of deviation. Actually I attempted to clear that out. the measurement is only one piece of evidence. Others are Differential veneer wall cracks <¼”wide. Extensive sheet rock cracks over doors, windows and ceilings. Cracks in the foundation wider than ¼”. Trim and siding separating from the structure. Windows moving out of alignment between the frame and wall. Sticking or out of square doors
Separation of counter tops and cabinets from the structure. Sometimes the other evidence points likewise to the same conclusion.

I always advise that the client can and should seek the advice of a professional engineer to address any concerns they may have.

I’m not trying to make a secret process. I have been open about it. 32 measurements on the foundation the reference is where I zero the zip level out. Apparently you missed the relevance I tried to make by point out the idea of measuring from the stop sign on the street corner. All measurements are referenced to a point that is calculated then the results are zero summed. So that you are looking at the lowest point as zero and then all the points of measure are shown from there.

Yes I am working for someone and the equipment is theirs. I asked lots of questions about the method being used and the conclusions that can be made from reviewing the results. But I did not ask for a photocopy of any and all supporting documentation. I am seriously considering a zip level in my set of tools as I do see value in it. Admittedly it is better to have a baseline from sometime after the slab was poured and cured. Now that would be a great subject of discussion.

I am very careful to explain to my client that I am using the tool for my own analysis and that it is a small part of a larger picture. I am careful to point out that they seek advice from an engineer regarding concerns they may have and that I have no way of telling if what I am seeing now is what I would have seen in the past as I have no baseline to go by.

Quote:
 	 		 			 				A slab level analysis can be a useful tool to determine slab  movement when properly performed and a previous baseline is available  for comparison. 			 		 	 	 

No doubt about it. Without a baseline is it useful? Now there is a question worth considering. I think it is. I believe it would be a far stretch to use the results to help formulate an “engineering opinion” but I think it can help me to determine what my opinion is.

Yes I have done a few of these or worked with someone in doing them. Maybe about ~30 and probably have seen six that showed greater than 1.5" were those “called out” as deficient? Nope, I also use another instrument. My eyeballs.

You know honestly I think it would not be a bad idea to require a baseline slab measurement following some agreed upon, standardized process. Maybe a third party to do the slab analysis I’m thinking a lot could be learned from this. It is a shame that it is not.

Sorry to disappoint you as there was no loss of sleep, no loss of work time , no loss of money. Not sure who you are referring to as “PSI”. As for time taken for the response your incongruities are very easy to see, cut and paste, and only took a few minutes while getting ready for the rest of the scheduled day. Nothing of relevance, or irrelevance (mostly), was missed in your posts.

I see you’re trying to back track on what you said and possibly you should just quit while you’re ahead? I get it, not your company, not your equipment, not your jobs, you’re only a paid monkey doing as he’s told to. :roll:

[jrobinson11 (Joseph G. Robinson)]

Well good then and no I am not disappointed. LOL

[dbowers (Dan Bowers, CMI, EDI)]

Emmanuel …

I’m trying to follow the post but it got real wiggy. I can’t figure out if you’re asking questions to learn how to better utilize a zip level; want to hammer the guy, OR ??

I’ve been on several jobs with engineers OR foundation contractors that use these and quite truthfully I think you could almost do the measurements quicker than follow the posts on this site.

[escanlan (Emmanuel Scanlan, TREC# 7593)]

@dbowers

Emmanuel …

I’m trying to follow the post but it got real wiggy. I can’t figure out if you’re asking questions to learn how to better utilize a zip level; want to hammer the guy, OR ??

I’ve been on several jobs with engineers OR foundation contractors that use these and quite truthfully I think you could almost do the measurements quicker than follow the posts on this site.

It started out as trying to understand his procedure and how he is using this to make definitive calls of slab levelness and performance of “performing”, “failing”, and “failed”. It turned to him using the “If I tell you I’m going to have to kill you!” type defensive posture and attempting to describe the super secret Rocky & Bullwinkle decoder ring methods. :roll:

If you read the original post he is providing an X/Y chart and nifty little 2D model that means nothing without an explanation of how it was achieved and additional information regarding dimensions of slab, etc. He claims to be using a zero reference point out at a stop sign and down the street, in other words well off the actual pad itself. He goes on to explain how he has measured over 2" of “heave” at one point and yet not one visible sign around it indicating movement. A lot of incongruous statements and it all made no sense.

The procedure he’s describing I have seen performed for grading and drainage (topographical surveys) of a development, pad sites, roads, etc. However now topographical survey equipment has gone real high tech using equipment such as this Agriculture Industry Technology & Farm Management Solutions | Trimble . During phase inspections I frequently see surveyors on sites running final grade measurements around homes using this specialty equipment. I see it on construction sites and have you ever noticed the graders with what appears like one of these GPS domes on it? Want to guess what that is? Pretty cool stuff!!

This same type of GPS enabled altimeters have made their way into slab level analysis work and are really accurate and blow away the Zip Level method!! I’ve watched a slab analysis being performed this way and the resultant data mostly loaded automatically in handheld devices to produce some really impressive X/Y graphs and 2D models that were unbelievably accurate. However those level analysis were all within the confines of the slab perimeter since the whole point is to measure the slab and not the entire pad site (area around the slab). Also the equipment is really expensive!!

We have a lot of Inspectors here running Zip Levels and unnecessarily scaring the crap out of buyers! A foundation under distress can be found without the Zip Level (as he so readily agrees) and running a level analysis without a prior baseline analysis, and without a standardized or highly documented procedure to be given to the client, does not provide a lot of value for the consumer when attempting to use the level analysis for a call of foundation performance (as he partly agrees) or for later use.

Even the Engineers here have broken down a foundation inspection into three levels with the first (Level A) being only visual to determine if stress has occurred, the second (Level B) including the level analysis measurements to determine possibly how much and possibly how much lift of the slab might be needed, and the last (Level C) going hog wild with the geological testing.

He comes to the board asking for information but tries to walk away without sharing information. What’s up with that? :roll:

[dbowers (Dan Bowers, CMI, EDI)]

Here I’ve only seen them used inside:

1. By franchises like “A-Pro” as a standard part of a home inspection. It gives the buyer a reference point for their records, so 3 -5 yrs later someone else can determine if the movement has stopped OR is ongoing by measuring the same points.

2. By foundation contractors, engineers and home inspectors to visibly graph and show a buyer / seller what has moved, where its moved AND how much its moved.

3. In expert witness type work … 2 yrs ago in defense of another home inspector I demonstrated for a man / wife engineer family, their attorney and their expert witness engineer that yes the floors were out of level BUT were within the building standard SoP which kept the inspector out of a lawsuit. He had not said anything in his report about uneven flooring AND they were ready to hammer him. My position for him was WHY would he talk about something IF it was within the codes / SoP / etc.

Their engineer and attorney reluctantly agreed AND lawsuit went away.

I think the Zip level is excellent for these type issues. For outside I’ve always used a robo-level.

[tpope (Timothy Pope, TREC #7494)]

Interesting discussion. To answer the original thread title, yes I offer foundation measuring. I’m not familiar with this particular method of documenting the findings, but I believe it can be useful even if it requires explanation. In fact, I like the idea of the client needing to contact YOU to come back years later and take new readings for comparison. $$
You have created a “baseline” reading for them, even if not from when the slab was poured, they now have one from today and can compare later if needed.

I use and generally see a simple drawing of the floor plan with the elevation readings plotted out. The reference point is usually in the center of the house, but I may change it later based upon the readings. Many engineers and foundation repair people make the highest point the reference to show the total deflection/slope from that spot in the house.

I’ve taken Joseph’s model and chart and made a crude drawing by plotting out the readings making the high point of + 2.1 inches the reference (REF 0) and showing the other measurements in relation to that spot. I don’t know the orientation of where those readings were actually taken, so my drawing just assumes it a simple rectangle and the bottom is the front of the house. So from this we can see that there is an acute high spot (could be a heave, could be some other anomaly) and the slab is at least low at the front, right corner.

I’d need to know more about where damage was visible, how the garage readings were taken, etc. to say much else. As a home inspector to my client, I am probably going to say even less.

Any other opinions?

[jrobinson11 (Joseph G. Robinson)]

Dan, Tim,

Thanks for the feedback!

The method we use gives a few valuable points it tells if there is a reflection greater than the desired 1.5" or less and only generally where the deflection occurred. I have done it on several homes and often times see related movements in trim, cracks in walls, windows or doors sticking etc. This example was unique somewhat in that the obvious cracks were in the front, and not as obvious at least to me matching the floor. There were lots of other symptoms of foundation movement but none that were consistent to me at least with the readings from measuring the floor.

I’m currently using a process where I do the outside, roof, garage, inside, then use a flir C2 and check the AC, Oven, signs of moistire I can put my meter on before doing the floor. Thinking about doing the floor first.

[nkienitz (Nolan Kienitz)]

@jrobinson11

Dan, Tim,

Thanks for the feedback!

The method we use gives a few valuable points it tells if there is a reflection greater than the desired 1.5" or less and only generally where the deflection occurred. I have done it on several homes and often times see related movements in trim, cracks in walls, windows or doors sticking etc. This example was unique somewhat in that the obvious cracks were in the front, and not as obvious at least to me matching the floor. There were lots of other symptoms of foundation movement but none that were consistent to me at least with the readings from measuring the floor.

I’m currently using a process where I do the outside, roof, garage, inside, then use a flir C2 and check the AC, Oven, signs of moistire I can put my meter on before doing the floor. Thinking about doing the floor first.

Joseph,

This has been an interesting thread. I have my own personal opinions after having done residential inspections for 15 years and commercial for 20, but I won’t bore you with that.

I’m curious, you are a newly licensed TREC inspector. Your comments in this thread and at your website seem to be interchangeable with “I” and “We”.

Are you in a “multi-inspector” firm with several folks working on each inspection or is it just you?

Also, what is your supporting background to be doing all that you do with such authority?

Again … just curious.

[cevans (Chuck Evans, CMI)]

@jrobinson11

then use a flir C2 and check the AC, Oven,

A thermometer is a more appropriate tool for this.

[ccameron (Cale Cameron, #21098)]

@jrobinson11

Been doing foundation measurements on my inspections and it is rather enlightening.

Here is a 10 month old warranty inspection home. (Yeah it has some magnificent vent stacks and I wonder how far they can go before having to support them) With large cracks. And a heave right in the middle with over 2" of deviation in the slab.

And yes those two little gutters on the front, well that’s all the gutters this house has.

Joseph,

I can tell by the pic who the builder was. Wondering what area of DFW this home is in? This house could almost belong to a close family member, other than a few details. Just wondering so I can take a look at their home next time I’m out there to get an idea if they should worry.

Thanks for your time and the info.

[jrobinson11 (Joseph G. Robinson)]

@ccameron

Joseph,

I can tell by the pic who the builder was. Wondering what area of DFW this home is in? This house could almost belong to a close family member, other than a few details. Just wondering so I can take a look at their home next time I’m out there to get an idea if they should worry.

Thanks for your time and the info.

I’ll shoot you a PM