I think what JJ was pointing out is there must be a standard. If you pick a standard, it is easy to make a recommendation. But I am not sure because I do not do this type of testing. But it appears the ppm limits are based on specific conditions. I have concerns if a number is just drawn from the sky without context or relation to other conditions in the home. Sorry, I just skimmed this…and I am really just poking at the premise of the testing.
Where is the information on stoves? Or fireplaces for that matter?
I posted the links to the information you all are dancing around.
If you’re too fricken’ lazy to even click the links (and read) what I posted,
(Brian was the only one to do so), ya’ll can just go-to-hell when you need help in the future.
You’re just not worth my time.
Good luck when you get in-the-shit for following half-assed interpretations of long established Standards!
I get and have read everything you have said Jeffery and i appreciate your thoughts. My conflict is between what you have sent, what we have posted above and this from the EPA…
Average levels in homes without gas stoves vary from 0.5 to 5 parts per million (ppm). Levels near properly adjusted gas stoves are often 5 to 15 ppm and those near poorly adjusted stoves may be 30 ppm or higher.
So ultimately what do we ho off of? With all of us inspecting in accordance with the InterNACHI SOP’s, what is the line in the sand for this topic? We all have credible references to allow everything from 9 PPM to 36 PPM to 50 PPM and over 200 PPM, so whats the right answer?
IMO… Your true conflict is with your misinterpretation of the standards.
You are so hung up on the “number” of the action level, you totally ignore the “duration” that the Standard establishes for the “number” to become an issue.
Are you running a duration test for a full 8 hours?
Are all other parameters and conditions in compliance during testing?
Closed house conditions, or operating ventilation anywhere in the home?
Does your State SOP give direction?
What does the specific appliance manufacturer indicate for compliance and testing methods?
InterNachi is a generalized guideline.
When there are other more authoritative entities, Internachi SOP (NOT Standards) bows to them.
Great discussion!
I’m a simple guy…These days (around my stomping grounds) most houses have one or more CO detectors, so I can know immediately that ambient CO levels are not enough to activate the detector. That’s a good start.
In a different thread, several HIs and I commented that we rarely use our CO detectors anymore. If I have beautiful blue flames on the gas appliances (except fireplaces), then great. If the stove burners are yellow, I don’t need to check for CO, it’s wrong and I call it out for correction.
Improper flue connections need to be fixed whether we detect leaking combustion gases or not. I’ve tested huge splits and holes in rusted out flues and got zero CO, probably because the burner flames were perfect blue. But those flues still need repair and correction.
The comments here about duration of testing are on target, IMO.
Over the years, I have been in several discussions about our role in “red tagging” safety issues. We are not authorized to do that. While, we are working only for our client, I, too will notify a seller or listing agent of a critical safety issue but only after getting approval from my client which so far, has never been a problem.
As a side note, at our school at InterNACHI headquarters, I have a working demonstration high efficiency 40,000 BTU furnace with an open flue. I converted it to LP and have a nice blue flame. I get 2ppm of CO at the top of the 12" long flue. Just a couple of feet above that exhaust point, CO concentration has diluted to zero.
Much of this discussion is about room air CO levels and actions. JJ notes several agencies, EPA, ANSI, others. Room air CO is occupant safety, and the action to take at various CO levels. The 9 to 36 ppm numbers come from BPI, and maybe others. See the first page of my pdf attached to my post farther up, the section labeled, “MONITOR INDOOR AMBIENT CARBON MONOXIDE (CO)”. Again, room air CO level and action to take, not appliance red tagging. These standards have nothing to do with appliances directly. They are occupant responses.
Farther down in that same pdf are standards for testing the appliance itself. That is where the 50ppm, 200ppm levels come to play, plus responses. Testing is made of undiluted exhaust gasses, not room air. An appliance person is the one to do this.
Brians chart, “Combustion Safety Test Action Levels” is another component of testing undiluted flue gasses, in combination with spillage at the draft hood, when the appliance is first fired up. Way beyond HI SOP’s.
I’d never red flag an appliance based on indoor air ambient CO readings. All you know when CO levels are high in the room is just that, “room CO was XXXppm when the 4 burners and oven were running for 30 minutes.”
My Inspection on Monday had a odor of gas in the laundry / utility room. Found that the connection of flex to the dryer was leaking. Had the realtor contact the listing agent. 10 minutes later the gas company was there and did their own inspection. They found what I did and shut the gas off to the dryer. I noted this in my report. End of story.
