Carbon Monoxide

Originally Posted By: jmyers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Hey men,


I came accoss this situation today and I wanted some opinions on the subject.

Old oven and stove top...could smell the gas the moment I walked in the door...pilot lights. The carbon monoxide detector read about 26 ppm at the stove and oven. I know the 9ppm rule for short term exposure.

Do you think I overstepped my limit by telling the buyer to get new appliances?

My thinking was this was a pretty high amount to expose yourself to on a continuing basis. Probably cause other problems, like headaches, dizziness, nasua...

Can you share your thoughts?

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Joe,


You were smelling the natural gas, no? Was there a significant leak at the combustible level? As far as the CO is concerned, I always follow the approved testing protocols before alerting someone to the danger. You're probably okay. WSere there other problems with the appliance as well? Did you also suggest installing a carbon monoxide detector(s) in the house?


Joe F


Originally Posted By: jmyers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Hey Joe,


Well I have found it is really insignificant to check for gas leaks with the TIF's when you have pilot lights, it sends them off the scale......and I do mean screaming! Although the rest of the gas lines did not have leaks.

I was concerned they would be living there and the possiblity of the stove and oven making the concentration above the 9PPM rule for short term exposure, making them unsafe.

I rarely tell clients to replace appliances but in this case I documented a potential problem that I did not want to come back and haunt me. Matter of fact this is the first time I ever told a client to replace the appliances.

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: Daniel Keogh
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Carbon monoxide is like smoking Joe theres no proof that you would except that shows that carbon monoide is hamful.


So I think that that the next time you are in a siduation were you are geting a high reading of carbon monoxide you should just light a ciggy and tell the buyer that you are not worried about carbon monoxide.

I'm sure they will understand ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)


Originally Posted By: jmyers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Actually Dan,


I took the battery out of my CO detector cause it kept going off and irritating the HE** out of me. When the heater guy came to clean the boiler, it burned a hole right through the fire box and the back of the boiler. Lucky for me I took that battery out, I almost lived! ![icon_razz.gif](upload://rytL63tLPMQHkufGmMVcuHnsuWJ.gif)

Anyway, something has to kill me sooner or later....anyone wanna take bets on what will kill me first?

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Call me crazy… But I can really feel the love…


Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



reading within the kitchen AFTER the appliance was activated? At worst, that reading is considered marginal.


Here's some info which may help clarify things...

Action Levels:

0 to 9 parts per million (ppm)

Normal - No Action: Typical from: outdoor sources, fumes from attached garages, heavy smoking, fireplace spillage and operation of unvented combustion appliances. With ambient conditions in this range, analysts may continue testing sequences.

10 to 35 parts per million (ppm)
Marginal:
This level could become problematic in some situations. Actions: Occupants should be advised of a potential health hazard to small children, elderly people and persons suffering from respiratory or heart problems. If the home has an attached garage, document CO levels in garage. Accept this level as normal for unvented appliances but not for vented appliances. If unvented appliances are in operation, recommend additional ventilation in the areas of operation. With ambient conditions in this range, analysts may continue testing to locate the CO source.

36 to 99 parts per million (ppm)
Excessive: Medical Alert. Conditions must be mitigated

Standard - Appliance Testing
All combustion appliances will be tested individually for CO production. If operation of any appliance raises ambient CO concentrations in the dwelling above 35 ppm, the appliance must not be operated by the homeowner until the cause is corrected.

Best Practices - House Preparation
Prior to testing combustion appliances, the house must be set to winter mode.
o Windows closed.
o Exterior doors closed.
o Close equipment room doors.
o Turn off all combustion appliances.
Best Practices - General Procedure for Appliance Testing
o Test vented combustion appliances first.
o Test unvented appliances only after completing vented appliance tests.
o Test common vented appliances individually beginning with the smaller appliance.
o If both appliances pass then test while both are firing.
o Test ambient air in the combustion appliance zone before testing combustion gases.
o Always monitor ambient CO levels to ensure health and safety.
o When ambient levels (space levels) within the CAZ are:
? 0 - 9 ppm Okay to test.
? 10 - 35 ppm Proceed with testing but carefully monitor ambient.
? 36 - 99 ppm Turn appliance off and ventilate area. When ambient CO levels are reduced to safe levels, operate one appliance at a time until source is located. Disable the defective appliance until it can be repaired.
? Greater than 100 ppm Stop testing, shut down the appliance(s), ventilate the area and exit the building. When ambient CO levels are reduced to safe levels, operate one appliance at a time until source is located. Disable the defective appliance until it can be repaired.

Best Practices - Ranges and Ovens
Ovens
o Should be tested after vented appliance testing is completed.
o Do not leave the CAZ while testing is in progress.
o For oven tests, remove any items stored in the oven before proceeding.
o Remove foil coverings from broil areas.
o Make sure that self-cleaning features are not activated. This may produce excessive levels of CO.
o Test ovens by inserting the instrument probe into the vent sleeve before dilution air mixes with combustion by-products.
o Continually test ovens during warm up and record peak. (10 minutes)
o CO levels greater than 400 ppm during warm up or levels that stay high for several minutes before decreasing indicate potential problems and should be serviced or replaced.
o For units with separate broiler burner, repeat test.
o Continually monitor ambient space around oven during testing.
o Note: Electric ovens with excessive buildup or in self cleaning mode may produce carbon monoxide.

Range Top
o Test after vented appliance testing is completed.
o Do not leave the CAZ while testing is in progress.
o Remove all pots and foil from the burner area.
o Turn all range top burners on high and allow to warm.
o Test 6" above the flame without pots or test fixtures.
o When an unvented stove/range is found in a building, stress the need for a strategy to vent pollutants to the outdoor atmosphere.
o Less than 50 ppm after 2 - 3 minutes of operation - OK
o 50 - 99 ppm after 2 - 3 minutes of operation - Marginal. Have the appliance serviced
o Greater than 100 ppm after 2 - 3 minutes - Unsafe. The appliance should not be used until repaired.


Again, based on these standards, a reading of 26ppm at the stove, is okay. The other questions as to the conditions, what, and how you tested add to the equation....

Hope this helped...

Joe F


Originally Posted By: jmyers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Joe F.


The 26 PPM reading I got was before I turned them on. The only thing buring around these appliances was the two pilot lights. Hence my concern.

If these two appliances are capable of creating this level of CO without ever being turned on, think what they can do once they are! If there would have been a vent hood that vented outside of the house, I would have been a little more forgiving but it only circulated the interior air, you guessed it, right into your face.

What would you have done?

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Again, I’m not criticizing you. Only you knew the conditions. What you described could probably have been considered CO in the ambient air. Since you knew the conditions prior to the test, you probably made the right call. Given the same circumstances, I may have done the same thing. Seems odd that the pilots were producing this much CO, but if they were… oh well. There were probably many other things wrong with the unit, so purchasing a new one was probably desireable. Remember, your eyes were the ones who saw it. There must have been many other factors that your sunconscience noticed which lead you to the decision you made.


My post was just to provide you with the actual protocols. Your initial question was missing some of the details you just provided. No one is playing Monday Morning Quarterback. Dude, its YOUR business, YOUR license, YOUR reputation, and most importantly YOUR conscience.

As I stated in my previous post "its YOUR inspection and YOUR call. No one can ever fault you for erring on the side of safety". I stand by that.

Be well, and Happy Thanksgiving!

Joe F


Originally Posted By: jmyers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Hey Joe F.


Thanks for the helpful information. What the heck, dead clients are not going to give me any referrals. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: jremas
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



My personal best is in a home that had 1200 ppm. All the occupants were sick the home was then condemned. Luckily I was only in there for 15 minutes. I bet their carboxyhemoglobin levels were through the roof. Oh yeah, by the way: it was a faulty furnace.






Jeff Remas
REMAS Inspections, Inc.
Northeastern PA & the Poconos
www.NEPAinspector.com

570-362-1598

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Boys and Girls,


Let's not forget to warn those pesky consumers that the self-clean cycle of that filthy oven (whether electric of gas) will produce lots of CO during that carbonization process. We always forget about CO in the kitchen when they have electric appliances, but these electric ovens produce lots of CO during that carbonization and incineration process where grease and food particles are turned to ash. As many folks sleep during this cycle (set it and forget it), I have been recommending installing CO detectors in the kitchen and in the bedroom hallway lately...

Oh, happy day


Originally Posted By: jmyers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Joe F.


Any idea of how much CO is created during the clean cycle with an electric appliance?

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: ecrofutt
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Two questions:


1. Why condemn the whole house if the furnace is bad? Just replace the furnace?

2. Why condemn the kitchen stove? Can you not adjust the pilot lights on those things?

Again, YOUR call, YOUR inspection.

Erby


Originally Posted By: jremas
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Actually, the whole house was condemned for the shape it was in. I was not there as an inspector, I was there for an ambulance call. The house was deplorable and the furnace was the least of it’s worries.


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



The New Jersey State Fire Marshal didn’t give inspectors much notice regarding a new carbon monoxide detector rule. The marshal informed the New Jersey Association of REALTORS on April 1 that, effective April 7, all New Jersey one- and two-family homes must be equipped with a properly installed carbon monoxide detector/alarm before owners can sell or rent the properties. (These detector/alarms have already been required in structures containing three or more families since 1999.)


According to Jarrod Grasso, NJAR's vice president of government affairs, the short, one-week notice came as a bit of a shock. He said the new rule was proposed in the Dec. 16, 2002, New Jersey Register, and NJAR had requested a three-month lead time in order to inform its members about the rule before it was implemented, but that was rejected. NJAR is concerned that the short lead time could cause problems for buyers and sellers who might sign contracts to close on or lease a property without knowing about the new requirement. Since the lead time was rejected, Grasso says the association is trying to get the word out to members as quickly as possible. NACHI inspectors in NJ take note.

Nick


Originally Posted By: mpatton
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Joe F.


Good information, I would like to use it but help me out what is the source for the listed information? Always helps to know the source.

Thanks,
![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)


--
Michael Patton
AA Home Inspection
Serving Northern KY & Greater Cincinnati OH

AA@AAHomeInspection.net
www.AAHomeInspection.net

Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



R.I.: Rigorous Fire Safety Code Passed


(June 30) -- Prompted by February's deadly fire at The Station nightclub in West Warwick, the Rhode Island legislature recently passed a 50-page fire safety code, intended to be the strictest in the nation, according to Monica Staaf, legal counsel for the Rhode Island Association of REALTORS. Both the house and the senate unanimously passed H.6141AA/S.1132A, which established the code. Its most dramatic provisions include a mandate that all nightclubs install fire sprinklers and the elimination of the old code's grandfather clause, making both existing and new structures subject to the fire code.

RIAR was able to negotiate several amendments, Staaf says. Fire safety has become an emotional issue here, and it took a hard-fought battle to retain the exemption for one- and two-family dwellings that was included in the old fire code. Three-family dwellings, which were exempt under the old code, have until July 1, 2008, to install smoke and carbon monoxide detectors. RIAR was also able to obtain a provision requiring any local ordinance regarding fire safety issues to be approved by the state Fire Safety Board before the local government can vote on it. She said the purpose of this provision is to standardize local fire codes. Each fire marshal has different standards and different requirements for the placement of fire and carbon-monoxide detectors.