ARC Fault, what do you think?

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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http://www.joetedesco.com/nec/viewtopic.php?t=1638



Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant


www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: dcampbell
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Joe


I don’t get it any way if it take a spark to trip them hasen’t that spark possibly created a situation alread that the arc cercuita are ment to stop.


What is there true value then???


Originally Posted By: bhendry
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Arc fault protection for the whole house. Increased demand = cheaper devices.


Actually - wait a second. National Semiconductor needs an idea! GFCI and AFCI on the same chip! Throw that in a circuit breaker case - make a zillion of them - save a life or two.

How about this - Electrician special - we'll install the newest safety system available - all new AFCI/GFCI breakers in your existing panel for $nn. Be safe - don't wait - call now.

Oh. But stop me. I must be nuts.


Originally Posted By: mike edwards
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Arc faults are supposed to save lives by not allowing a condition to occure that could posibily cause a fire.


I agree that cords and plug in appliances cause fires when not maintained or replaced.

But, as the author said, doesn't the owner of the house need to to take the responsibility for his own safety. We can not 100% protect the plubic from all posiblities of injury or accident. Nor can we design a totally fire free home.

People are the key to safety, educate them and be surprised. You can not rely on devices only. People are not brainless.

I think an exception should be made for ceiling outlets: See NFPA 72 concerning smoke detection. As well as refrigerator and freezers.

Bottom line, I think that these device requirements should stop at the top 2 rooms that are known to be the origin of electricaly caused fires.

And if your jurisdiction does not agree with the new requirement see NEC Section 80.13 (15). And take charge!


Originally Posted By: rmoore
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I have a question for Joe…or Bob B, or anyone else with thoughts on the matter…


Would putting a GFCI outlet on an AFCI breaker protected circuit accomplish anything or would the GFCI be redundant? ( I don't think so).

I'm not suggesting it...I'm just wondering if eventually, when AFCI's are required in areas other than bedrooms, there might be some places where both end up being required and what the consequences of that might be.


--
Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services
Seattle, WA
www.rainspect.com

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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http://www.joetedesco.com/nec/viewtopic.php?t=1638



Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant


www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: Ryan Jackson
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I think they are a really neat peice of equipment…in fact, they really are a marvel of engineering.


One of the issues to consider is that a standard breaker functions the same as they did about 75 years ago...maybe it is time for a change.

On the other hand, you asked what I think, so, careful what you wish.

I think the NEC has no business pushing these into people's home before they have an established track record. I mean, you look at GFCI's...it has taken thirty years to get 8 locations protected in a dwellin unit. With the AFCI, we almost saw whole-house protection being required in the May NFPA meeting, and they have been around less than 10 years. I think the NEC is being used as a marketing tool for big-business, and it makes me ill.

Thats what I think. Now, having said that, I require them in my jurisdiction as required by 210.12, and I do think they save lives. I also think that they need to be around a little longer before their expanded use is required. Just my thoughts. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


--
Ryan Jackson, Salt Lake City

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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" think they are a really neat peice of equipment…in fact, they really are a marvel of engineering." icon_biggrin.gif icon_biggrin.gif


I install these when ever the application allows.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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http://www.joetedesco.com/nec/viewtopic.php?t=1638



Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant


www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: dbozek
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Joe,


I recently discussed this proposed code change with my code wizard and we both kind of agreed that the cost of panels would increase dramatically. Right now my cost on a afci breaker is about $50. In new construction, arc fault breakers for every branch circuit would really increase the cost of a panel. If it was a 40 space panel for instance, we are talking about $2000 just for the breakers. Nevertheless, I do understand the need for a arc fault device, but I have to wonder is every branch circuit in need of such. I would think not. If we just protect the bedrooms and perhaps the living room as well, I think that would be sufficeint.


Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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AFCI is about the only item from the NEC that my state hasn’t adopted. I guess they don’t believe it’s necessary.



Wisconsin Home Inspection, ABC Home Inspection LLC


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Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Many states have resisted adoption of these devices, areas of NY, included.


NY Board of Fire Underwriters has yet to require them.

I wish we'd stick to discussions, and refrain from posting code references. We are not code inspectors. Let's use plain language, please


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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I say to those that are against the use of AFCI protection, that you should be the one to explain to the parents of children that have died in fires from arc faults, how your fears against arc fault protection aided in your decision not to implement that technology.


I don't believe the NFPA is marketing this technology as a big money maker for those that manufacture the equipment, rather they are just excited that this kind of technology can be used to save lives. After all, that is what they are all about, SAVING LIVES.

Maybe all of you were happy with going outside to the bathroom but I for one am into modern conveniences like computers and indoor plumbing. If I want to cut and split firewood, I would rather do it for hunting camp. When I come home, I just want to be warm and dry! ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: dfrend
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Good post! I have to agree. Look at the fire service and fire safety as a whole. When do changes get made? When people die. It is unfortunate, but it is a fact. And when those changes are made, people will complain, but that is too bad.



Daniel R Frend


www.nachifoundation.org


The Home Inspector Store


www.homeinspectorstore.com

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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Are there any good statistics that state how many fires and/or injuries are due to arc faults? And what caused the problem?


Originally Posted By: dfrend
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I will continue to search on injuries. Below are some stats:



1. Recently, CPSC research indicated that 50-75% of ALL electrical fires could be prevented by the devices. That means that of 73,500 electricla fires annually, AFCIs could potentially prevent 55,125 fires and save more than 440 lives, 1,685
injuries, and $785,925,000 in property damage.

2. According to the National Fire Protection Association and National Fire Incident Reporting System data, during the five-year period from 1994-1998, there were an average of 73,500 total electrical fires annually, which were responsible for 591 deaths, 2,247 injuries, and property damage totaling $1,047,900,000.1 The electrical problems that lead to these fires went undetected by conventional circuit breakers. Of these 73,500 electrical fires, 60,900 or 82% were caused by arcing and not by overloads or short circuits.

The data does not include the EXACT cause however.


--
Daniel R Frend
www.nachifoundation.org
The Home Inspector Store
www.homeinspectorstore.com

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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Thanks Dan,


If those statistics are accurate, and the cause is actually an arc fault, then they should not only be in the bedrooms, but throughout the house. I am, however, always leery of government statistics. ![nachi_sarcasm.gif](upload://6HQh6KbNiD73gqTNQInjrR2zeJw.gif)


Originally Posted By: dfrend
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The statistics themselves come for the US Fire Incident Reporting system. For those in the fire service, you will know that all fires get a legal report written with a cause indicated. The causes are then compiled into this data. So all of those numbers come from confirmed cases of arc faults in electrical fires. they are not just government studies. They are the actual numbers from the fire marshals that investigated.



Daniel R Frend


www.nachifoundation.org


The Home Inspector Store


www.homeinspectorstore.com

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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I added those, these, AFCI’s to the circuits that I replaced (re-fed to the new panel) today 07/09/04.


Mike P.