Anyone Recommending AFCI's

Archive Public Archive
1

Originally Posted By: jsavino
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


I found three sites for information on AFCI’s that are interesting.


www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pub/afcifac8.pdf

www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pub/afci.html

www.ul.com/regulators/afci

John

2

Originally Posted By: jmyers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


John,


Currently I am not mentioning anything about AFCI protection. For one, I need to purchase an AFCI tester first. Second, I am not totally sold on the idea of AFCI protection yet.

The AFCI protection is a mess to begin with, since the technology really was not ready to be implemented when it was written into the codes. They certainly could have educated electricians more on trouble shooting this technology, which would have made the implementation and installation much easier and a whole lot more cost effective for the consumer.

I am sure I will in the future, but for now I will pass.

Joe Myers

3

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


I am sold on AFCI’s.


Not all homes, older ones with multi-branch circuits, can have them installed.

I would say that you should NOT recommend an upgrade.

Mike P.

4

Originally Posted By: jsavino
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joe M,


I see you point. The article I was reading this A.M., said that they " It is important to note that AFCIs are designed to mitigate the effects of arcing faults but cannot eliminate them completely. In some cases, the initial arc may cause ignition prior to detection and circuit interruption by the AFCI".
I thought that was interesting. Thanks for the come back.
John

You to Mike.

5

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


John


"You to Mike.'

What is the question?

Edited:
Sorry, I read this as To you Mike and not as you wrote it.

Mike P.

6

Originally Posted By: hgordon
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


During a recent inspection I turned to the Buyer and said “this home is equipped with ARC Protection Devices” and before I could continue the wife broke down in tears…holding my breath I waited for her to gain her composure at which time she looked up at me and said in a cracked tone:


"Until you have lost it all, you will never know how important it is to have these devices..." she continued, "and just recently, after loosing it all due to an ARC, we recently were told that had we NOT HAD them in the current home we are in, we would have lost it all again...this time that would have included our newborn as it was in their room".

Important that we dont loose sight of our job...we are there to REPORT what we SEE....things that are there that should not be there and things are are NOT there that should be there.

That being said, if you are doing a New Construction Monitoring job, or a 1 year puch list, then the chances are good that there should be ARC protection installed.

You may want to ask Jerry "The Codemeister" Peck what the code says.

--
Harvey Gordon
SE Florida NACHI Chapter - President
hgordon@fl.nachi.org

7

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


The 1999 NEC requires arc-fault protection of all bedroom RECEPTACLE outlets, effective 1/1/2002.


The 2002 NEC requires arc-fault protection of ALL bedroom OUTLETS.

That's ceiling fan outlets, ceiling light outlets, wall light outlets, smoke detector outlets, ALL OUTLETS, and, oh, yeah, receptacle outlets too.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

8

Originally Posted By: ekartal
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


There’s plenty of new construction without AFCI’s. Don’t the builders know of these codes!


Erol Kartal

9

Originally Posted By: jsavino
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


If there is new construction without AFCIs, then the AHJ may not be doing their job. Could this be possible? icon_eek.gif


John

10

Originally Posted By: ekartal
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Correction. I just checked on several reports, the homes were built in 2001.


Erol K.

11

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Not all AHJ use current codes, or even any code (from what I here from various areas of the country).


Regardless of whether the current code is used or not, or any code is used or not, things that are life safety (most electrical is life safety) should be addressed as related to the current NATIONALLY recognized code, i.e., the NEC for electrical.

Can you enforce the 2002 NEC on an area using the 1999 NEC? Of course not. Can you enforce the 1999 NEC on an area using the 1999 NEC? Of course not. We are not code officials and cannot enforce any code. We can, however, tell our clients what the current nationally recognized code is. They, in turn, can (if they so chose) take it upon themselves to work with THEIR elected officials toward getting the current codes adopted in their areas. WE can also accomplish this by continually point out the error of the AHJ's ways to our clients. At some point, it becomes easier for the AHJ to enforce what they should be enforcing then it is to keep telling the public (which they are supposed to be protecting) why they (the public) does not need that protection.

Here is an example: The city of Pompano Beach, Florida. refused to ad fluoride to the public water supply back in the late 50s (or early 60s) when it came out 'because it was supported by those commie types and we don't trust them to add anything to our water, there is no telling what that stuff really does'. It was only just a few years ago that the city commissioners in Pompano Beach finally agreed to add fluoride to their water. The 'status quo' (not adding fluoride to the water) just became to hard to defend. Think of all the cavities and rotten teeth they could have saved for the children and adults in their city if they had pulled their collective heads out of their butts years, make that DECADES, earlier!

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

12

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


In this part of New York State, that portion of the NEC is not required. The NY Board of Fire Underwriters does not require these devices.


I heard that the NFPA folks are considering taking this requirement out of the next version of the NEC. Only time will tell. I called this out on a newer constructed home I was inspecting, and nearly got my head handed to me by the relo company I was inspecting for, the sellers RE broker, the local building department, and the electrical inspector (who called me 3 days later).

In some areas it is NOT a requirement.

--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

13

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


More info in Mar 2004 EGMAG pp.116


Mike P.

14

Originally Posted By: jmyers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


I agree that AFCI protection does have the potential to save lives. The NFPA put a lot of effort and money into their decision to place AFCI protection into bedrooms.


My point was that the technology and education were not in place, making it a very costly venture for both the electrician when it came to troubleshooting that technology and also expensive for the consumer, since the technology was not all that cheap when it was unveiled and the need for troubleshooting arose.

I thought it would have been better implemented if they did not stop at the bedrooms and required it through out the house, except those where GFCI protection was required and for dedicated circuits.

They also needed to educate electricians better on troubleshooting the technology as from what I have read, those first units that were placed into use were problamatic and cost electricians and consumers a lot of money to correct.

Now those past problems have seemed to have been resolved, I have entertained the idea of placing all the receptacles in my house on AFCI protection, not just the bedrooms. Most likely over the next year or so, I will have them all on AFCI protection, not just the bedrooms.

My reason is simple, I have one of those >100 year old houses and I did find a circuit in my house that was sending current to the neutral/ground bar in the main panel. I had sparks flying off the bar every time I placed the screwdriver in the bar. While I did not know how it was getting there, it would have made me "feel" much better knowing it would trip.

Eventually I did find the circuit and it turns out the hot was contacting the connector right where it entered the main panel. While I have replaced much of the wiring in "this old house" much of the older wiring still exists and the potential for this to happen again is pretty good.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I have a toddler and a pre-schooler. If anything would happen to them, I would literally "die" from the inside out. Needless to say, I love them beyond anything or anyone.

Joe Myers

15

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


jfarsetta wrote:
In some areas it is NOT a requirement.


No one said it is a REQUIREMENT in all areas.

However, that does not mean you cannot, or should not, include that recommendation. It is, after all, a nationally recognized requirement in a nationally recognized life safety code.

If the local AHJ does not want to enforce it, so be it, but they cannot stop your from recommending it.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
16

Originally Posted By: janderson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


I am not completely sold on the idea of AFCI’s. Primairly for 2 reasons; which were provided to me by a forensic electrical engineer.


1.) #14 copper actually has an arc rating of 160 amps (before it will completely melt through and fail)

2.) The amount of thermal energy created in single 15amp 120v arc is equal to a paper match burning for one second.

--
Within the seeds of ignorance lie the fruits of denial

Jeremiah

17

Originally Posted By: jmyers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Jeremiah,


If you want a bunch of "1 second matches" burning in your home, by all means, go ahead and ignore AFCI protection.

Further, studies conducted by the NFPA have cited a large proportion of those fires that were started by arc faults, occurred at night when most of the occupants of the home were asleep.

If the forensic electrical engineer that you know has stated that it would take 160 amps to completely melt #14 wire, I would have to take his word for it. Although, I have to admit that I know in the older homes like the one which I live in, it does not take much more than a big spark to set the wood on fire. Once you have it started it goes pretty darn quick.

Like all new technology, I wait until they have the bugs worked out of it, before I want to see it implemented. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Joe Myers

18

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


These devices are stil flawed, and difficult to troubleshoot.


NFPA recognizes this, and is entertaining all sides on the matter.

As to placing them all over the house, think about all the deviced you own which produce arcs. Like everything with an electric motor: fans, blenders, blow dryers, AC units, circulator pumps, etc. Placing these devices everywhere would be a nightmare. This was the thought to limiting them to bedrooms.

There was also a marketing piece to this by the patent owners and manufacturers of these devices...

--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

19

Originally Posted By: janderson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joe M,


An electrical fire can not break the laws of physics--an arc on an 120v 15amp branch circuit (the size usually used in bedrooms) does not produce enough thermal energy to ignite ordinary combustibles in the length of time it would occur before the circuit breaker or fuse would open (about 8 milliseconds) Of more concern is the potential for an arc to provide an ignition source for a combustible gas leak that is within the lower and upper explosive limits.

I understand your concern, I have small children as well--and I agree that the bugs need to be worked out of this technology ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

--
Within the seeds of ignorance lie the fruits of denial

Jeremiah

20

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


janderson wrote:
An electrical fire can not break the laws of physics--an arc on an 120v 15amp branch circuit (the size usually used in bedrooms) does not produce enough thermal energy to ignite ordinary combustibles in the length of time it would occur before the circuit breaker or fuse would open (about 8 milliseconds)


A lot of fire investigators will explain to you how wrong you are. MANY fires start as a result of arcs off these circuits, even arcs from the lowly lamp cord cause fires.

I also guess that you have never seen a lamp cord, with a broken conductor inside, sitting there smoldering either, have you? Arcs CAN cause fires.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida