Basement framing and moisture.

General Inspection Topics General Inspection Discussion
21

So is this thread to become a pissing match to see who can belittle someone more and more with each post? I am trying to understand why people would assume something about me without knowing? What would make you say I am being sued by a client? I work on my own properties when it comes to rehabilitation. For some reason it appears you guys are bitter about something and are taking it out on me for whatever reason? I came here for help not to be treated like a child. I took the time to write a well detailed post, took the time to take good pictures to come up with a legitimate plan to correct my issue. I would also like to keep my walls out of water. I live in this house, it is mine. It appears that some of you didn’t even take the time to read it because I clearly stated that is was my basement. Either way, hope as adults “certified inspectors” maybe we can stop the childs play and focus on the matter at hand. With that being said, I do own a skid steer and backhoe. The grade in front is more then adequate. The gutter drainage is more then adequate. I will also reiterate that it is a walkout basement, meaning the grades on the side of the house taper to the back yard. The back yard also tapers down to a creek, which was also stated in the first post. All this combined would lead a person to say, the grade is adequate all the way around. I will also mention again that the one block you see that is damp, is the only block in the house that stays damp year round, even through drought. Why? I have no idea. That block is on my garage side of the house, so I would have to go under my driveway to dig to it.

Now if what I am reading is correct, you guys are suggesting that I dig on the outside of my foundation and waterproof it from the outside? I could do this, but it seems like alot of tearing **** up to fix something that isnt that huge of a problem. Like I said already, the area where you see mold with not studs on the bottom of the brick is an accumulation of over 20 years time from where the rigid foam boards were installed. So one would figure if you took the wall and had a gap between it and the cinder blocks you wouldnt have that issue of mold because their would be room to breathe. I would also have thought that maybe my ideas might be better then ones of using plastic to BLOCK water, which I do not believe in to begin with. I also don’t care who or where you are, below grade their is going to be moisture no matter what you do at some point in time. So what would be wrong with bringing the wall off the ground and wall to prevent that at all times? I guess I am confused with how you guys are acting in your “retaliation posts”. I was under the understanding this was an informative site full of “profressionals”.

I do appreciate the other positive feedback that has been received and will look into it now that I am back to a computer.

And thank you for stating the obvious that decking isnt a structural board, but the reasoning for using it is that it will never rot, seems to make sense to me?

NO WATER NO MOLD! Wall out of water, no mold in wall. Makes sense to me? And like I have already stated, I do not have standing water in my basement, just a dampness of that one brick, and slight dampness on bottom during a heavy rain. Other then that, we are dry as can be, sump pump diverts the water out from under my basement floor.

I am just trying to come up with a reasonable, legitimate way to finish this front wall of my basement so I do not have mold problems in the future. Talk all of the trash you want about whatever you want, but if I wasn’t trying to do this right, why would I be posting on this website? I am a firm beleiver in not passing the problem on to the next guy, but even after I have taken this extra step to make sure to do right, people still want to belittle and talk trash. Lose the ego and help instead of cut peoples idea’s down, it would make this world a much better place.

Again thank you for the ones that have posted good information, it will be reviewed.

22

Here is a clip from that link:

  1. Moisture sensitive materials such as
    wood, paper and fiberglass batts should not be
    installed in direct contact with concrete or masonry
    walls and floors.
  2. Moisture tolerant materials that also do not absorb liquid water should be installed in contact with concrete and masonry surfaces. These materials will not
    deteriorate if they get wet and they also will not wet moisture sensitive materials
    that are in contact with them.
  3. Moisture tolerant insulation installed in an airtight manner on basement walls
    and floors warms the first condensing surface above the dew point of the interior air. This reduces the probability of warm moist air condensing on cool
    surfaces

I am doing both things in 1 and 2 there, and people are saying that its not a good idea, not sure I am understanding why it’s not a good idea other then “Composite decking is not a structural material”.

I wanted to stay away from putting anything directly onto my cinder block walls because this style of insulating was used before and created mold between the panels and the wall, that doesn’t mean though that they did it right either. Do you think that this would be the best way to handle the below grade side? Why couldn’t I just construct a wall with a 3 inch gap or up to 6 inch gap between the cinder blocks and framework and have better results?

23

So you would agree a second bottom plate would be a good idea made out of composite materials? Depending on whether or not I use XPS over the cinder blocks, would you recommend me using a solid composite plate all the way around or doing the block method like I had mentioned which would leave a gap under my second bottom plate between every stud? I am just trying to forumulate a solid plan going into this. Have not done any basement finishing up to this point and what it to be done correctly. Most of the work I have done is sump pump work, footings, etc. My carpentry work has all been done above grade, but I have seen first hand what an improperly installed finished basement can bring to the table as well as the horror stories online.

Also you are saying NO vapor barrier at all and to use that Densarmor for my paneling. Should I use Densarmor on the above grade sides too, or just the below grade sides? I am sure it is way more expensive then regular drywall which is why I ask. Also, would could I use regular gypsum on the ceiling considering everything that has been discussed? Obviously their is no moisture up there like the walls and floor, so I would think it would be ok, but I would like your assessment. Thanks for your time, going to read on through and continue educating myself further.

24

Try reading next time.

25

No insulation should touch the cinder block wall.
The wall can be sealed with Xypex.
Then furring strips that are treated can be placed to keep XPS away from block wall.
A wall is framed out with composite deck under it according to the building practice.
Roxul insulation is added to the framing and there should be a gap between cinder block, XPS, Framed out wall and the insulation of both.
I am sorry that the MB sometimes A S S U M E S and this is not the way we are as a Professional Association.

26

Are you referring to a sump pump? I have one, unless their is another type of drain to install. I have considered doing some exterior waterproofing already to that side of the house that has the “wet brick year round”. What I found to be weird is that where that wet brick is, is right where my concrete front porch is with a roof over it, and which is also right next to my garage. I need a new driveway there, and was going to repour my porch as well, so when that happens I was going to consider digging down to the footing and waterproofing it. This being said though I scratch my head as to why that brick stays wet when its surrounded by concrete from above on both sides. The blue wall you see in the picture is where my garage is. The white wall where their were outlines of slats is where my front porch is. The front porch comes out about 10 feet from the garage wall to put it into perspective.

27

I am almost inclined to jackhammer up the area of the sump system where the wet brick is to investigate. Maybe it isn’t pitched right and is holding water there? It baffles the hell out of me.

28

http://www.conproco.com/ConproSuperSeal.htm

All,

Take a look this website and let me know what you think. Here is a testimonial of sorts…

I had the same problem with my 50 year old house (and cinderblock).

I hired a mason to grind down the walls (it had waterseal my father put on in the 70’s) and use Conproco Conproseal (interior below grade waterproofing). The flow inside stopped. Of course, solving why water is getting into the outside block is important too. A book that I found very helpful to figure out what to do:

The Original Basement Waterproofing Handbook
http://www.amazon.com/Original-Basem…5551352&sr=8-1

I’m still debating whether to ALSO do a French Drain, since I’ve verified already that

  1. My property is graded away from the house
  2. I have downspouts that work properly
  3. I do not have bushes close to the house
  4. It’s too expensive to do an exterior French drain (ripping up the new bluestone patio and deck, along with digging around the water lines being worrisome)

SO, the flow inside is stopped, but you could still get water coming up from the footing in storms like we had in New England last May (Mother’s Day).

29

Many of the composite materials, like TREX, contain recycled wood fibers. Since you are not absolutely getting rid of the moisture, and the composite material could be in constant contact with the moisture, the material could fail. There were issues with many of the early composite materials with flaking and failure. It is beyond their design for your proposed application. Use pressure treated lumber and if you are still worried about the moisture, try applying some self adhering butyl flashing to the bottom plate.

Now that we have more information, it sounds like the moisture could be following your driveway sub-grade down to that particular corner. Of course this is simply supposition but you have to start somewhere. The finished drive would stop any type of evaporation so even during a drought, it could still be damp, not necessarily saturated, but damp all year long. Moisture is moisture. It will find a way in if there is one. And since you have one, it needs to be properly sealed from the exterior. Anything else is a stop gap repair at best.

We argue, we fight, we call each other names. It has nothing to do with professionalism. It is a bunch of independent, self motivated, strong ego, individuals with differing opinions that have fun and release stress on this message board. If you don’t like the banter, don’t post. Out of much of this quagmire comes pretty good information.

NEXT GUESS !

30

And when that is done, the problem of finishing the inside will not be an issue.

The above says it all in one sentence.
Damproofing is meant for moisture control without any hydrostatic pressures.
Water proofing is meant to stop hydrostatic pressures, moisture wicking from the exterior and bridges any shrinkage cracking that may occur.

Do it right, bite the bullet, and problems solved. Otherwise, keep paying for failures in the future. :slight_smile:

31

Well I have went ahead and priced Roxul r-15, Xypex Concentrate, Densarmor Plus and Greenguard insulation board 1" thick for approximately 600 square feet. Not including studwork or furring strips, I would be looking at approximately 1900 dollars in materials to do an 80 foot run 7 foot tall. Not a huge investment compared to what it would cost for regular gypsum and fiberglass insulation. I do not have to finish the below grade side of my basement right now, I can finish the rest of the basement first and do it last, that does not matter to me at all because of right now its my personal fitness center.

I do intend on pouring a new driveway as well as replacing the concrete under the covered porch. I also need to install an egress window in the front of the house to make the basement bedroom able to be considered a bedroom upon resale. On the side of the house opposite the garage, I have to rebuild a retaining wall on that side. So with all this in mind, and me owning my own back hoe, I could waterproof the exterior while doing the things listed above, just take a little extra digging. This being said, what would be my best materials to use for this project so I can get an idea of what it is going to cost me in materials. I have all the time in the world, and love to experience new things, so I honestly dont mine tearing the absolute sh it out of my yard. I want to also take it a step further and install a french drain below the pad level on the outside while I am down in the hole.

This being said about the french drain, it brings me to yet another idea. Most people backfill with dirt next to a house. I build retaining walls as part of my profession. 0 have failed. This being the case, why not get rid of all the dirt that would be used to backfill and fill it up with 3/4 inch clean rock from bottom to top, with a top layer of top soil. Bottom, top, and sides of trench would be lined with a fabric to prevent dirt from entering the system, and it would be routed, probably with a double pipe from front around side to the back of the house. I could just tie my retaining wall drain right in with it as well as the egress window drainage.

What do you guys think about that? I will have to dodge a natural gas line and a water line, but I dont think that should be an issue.

NOW, if I go as far as to do all of this, would I still need to use all of this Xypex, insulation board furred out, or could I just skip the xypex and insulation board and frame the wall 3 inches away from the cinder blocks with the roxul insulation in it. I would also probably still use the densarmor paneling as well.

Keep in mind, all of my experience is from hands on training from being a child on up. I haven’t went to school for any of this, the internet truly is your friend, so is trial and error. I have rarely done things incorrectly, due to the fact of the ammount of research I go through before doing any type of major project.

32

I didnt realize some of them have wood fibers in them, even if they do, wouldn’t it take that much longer to fail then your typical treated lumber? Obviously finishing that below grade side of my house is going to be much further out then I had originally anticipated now, I still would like to have a solid game plan for when I do get down to doing it.

I also didn’t realize, if it is in fact true, that because the ground is covered with concrete, that water couldn’t evaporate. I would have just assumed that since it wasn’t raining or being supplied with any more water, that eventually it would have just seeped further down into the earth or into the sump system and be diverted out through the pump, instead of remaining damp on that one block.

Should I open my sump system and investigate in that small corner of the house, or just start outside and work my way in for now? I suppose I will get a new driveway this year and porch and just get that stuff out of the way come spring time. Hopefully we get some dry months this year. Last year it rained for like 2 months straight in St. Louis area.

33

Another question. If I do waterproof the outside walls, wouldnt water still come up through the footing, and pad inside? I do have a sump pump.

34

If you are in construction, why don’t you know about this stuff? I suggest you go back to college or a local trades school and learn. Perhaps you need a local, licensed, educated and licensed contractor or local engineer to look at your situation in person, or hire a local InterNACHI inspector.

Having a sump pump is different than having a sump system. You have a serious mold problem, too. Clean, prepare, do outside work before even installing one stud. I have drilled holes into concrete blocks at the base and then have had to run because of the water that comes out.

Good luck.

35

Why on earth would I do that? Tell you what, come pay my mortgage and bills and work my other full time job and I will get right on that. Haters are gonna hate that is for sure.

Most of my construction is retaining walls, landscaping, hauling, excavation, interior remodeling. Doesn’t mean I can branch off and learn things on my own, as long as what I do is done correctly. What trade school did Noah go to?

If you don’t want to help, don’t. I don’t mind helping people that ask me for help, but that is just the type of person I am. I give, I care.

36

You could put an interior drain tile / gutter system in, but the water would still be coming in. The only way to STOP the water coming in is exterior water proofing, using rubber membrane. I would bet that your drain tile system is bad, either clogged or obstructed. The water table is just too high, what with that creek nearby.

I would not recommend that this basement be finished. Just get a big de-humidifier down there and don’t finish it.

I know that this is not what you want to hear, but it is the truth.

Sorry.

37

Garry, he lives in Illinois. There are no state licensed or trained general contractors in Illinois, only some local license requirements and only one municipality with any qualification requirements and testing.

38

Appears you edited the post after I responded already. I have a sump system. The pipe and clean rock goes all the way around my foundation that is below grade and drains into a basin on the above grade side of my house and is pumped out. I plan on throwing everything away that has mold on it, or cleaning it and using it in a shed out back. That drywall you see was sitting on the floor when my sump pump failed. Bad things happened to that drywall. It is all salvageable just have to rip off the bad section, who knows may throw it out too. I am not sure I want to drill holes into the blocks at this point at the bottom, think I should probably just start outside first like others have suggested and just seal the outside first. Need to research that a bit more and find out what exactly is the best option for me there. I also planned on installing a trench with grate over it when I redo my driveway to drain any water that might get up there away from the house as well.

39

The creek is a good 20 or 30 foot below my foundation of the house and about 200 feet from me. I watch the water run free from the system too after having let it fill up before to the top and it flows rather nicely. Maybe I should just go ahead and bust up the corner where it starts and pour a 5 gallon bucket into it and see how much comes out. This might not be a bad idea, and wouldn’t cost me much time or money to do.

40

Ine way to test the drain tiles is to pour about 4 bottles of red Rit dye (from any Wal-Mart) around the highest portion of the foundation (above grade) and flush it with some water. Look for the dye in the sump.

Remember, Greenboard is NOT water proof and is definately NOT mold proof. When cleaning the mold, DO NOT use bleach. Us a product like Mold Control (Home Depot). Any moldy building materials should be THROWN OUT and not used.

A small word. Just because you were “trained” from childhood to do this type of work, does not mean that you know anything about it. Professional training is always better (and usually more in accordance with codes and reality) than “good ol’ boy, backyard training”. Sorry, but this is the truth. I find many “tradesmen” around here who have been doing the work for 30 years that don’t have a freakin’ clue what they are doing. They are completely convinced that they know their stuff, but a just plain wrong.

Hope this helps;