buy a new house with HIGH radon gas levels

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#1

Originally Posted By: Asif2000
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We have been looking for a house for about 6 months now. We just found a great house couple of weeks ago. We placed an offer last weekend which got approved. I have an inspection due tomorrow. I had the inspection company do the radon gas inspection as well. They put their equipments 2 days ago. I just got the results. The results from the 3 tests are 5.63, 5.59 and 5.61 respectively.


I am really shocked to hear about the above normal results and this makes me very very nervous. This house is in Farmington Hills, MI.

I know that the extreme option is to back out of the deal. What should I really do is a whole different question...

- Should I negotiate for the price of the house and then put the saved money against treating the high level?
- Should I back out of it completely? Does it make sense? Is it a good enuff reason?

If I go with the first option, is treatment effective? How long the treatment takes to complete remove the gas and if it is completely removed, what are the chances of it coming back...

This is really really really urgent. Please give me all the input you can....

Thanks in advance

#2

Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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level of the house? (it is pointless measuring basement levels unless the basement is finished pace)


2) had the house been vacant for any length of time prior to the samples being taken ? (if the house was vacant and the normal venting through doors and window was not taking place then the readings would be higher than under normal conditions (I recently looked at a property that measured 5.6 pCi/L after being vacant for 6 months, but when tested again under normal living conditions tested at 3.1 pCi/L))


3) are there any other structural problems allowing entry of Ra into the home (ie cracked slab or foundation)


As to the cost implications of possible Ra mitigation I will not comment on that due to the many variables of Construction but systems generally are very effective and not in most cases cost prohibitive.

Here's some EPA guidelines/Stats that may help you put this into perspective.
A) Ra levels between 4-20 pCi/L should be mitigated within 1-2 years
B) Statistically at the levels that you mention you are at about the same risk of drowning as you are of dying of Ra induced lung cancer (full life time at that level)
C) At 5-6 pCi/L statistically 3 people per thousand would expect to die of Ra induced cancer (after life time exposure at that level) jumps to about 50 per thousand if they are smokers.

I hope this information is helpful to in making your mind up about this house, and if in any doubt call on a specialist radon mitigation contractor in your area. he will be able to give you a better Idea about applicable mitigation systems and their cost.

Regards

Gerry

--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

#3

Originally Posted By: rwills
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Dear Homebuyer, Gerry gives you pretty much info in his post. I would just add a few things. I deal with radon on a daily basis in RE transactions and it is pretty common. From what I see, if the level is higher than 4.0 pCi/L the buyer uses it as a negotiating tool to have a mitigation system installed by placing some money in escrow. The cost can run anywhere from $700 up to $2500 or more with the avg. cost somewhere in the $12 to 14 hundred range depending on what you may need. The system basically lets the radon bypass the house and not get rid of it per se. To back out because of it would be a decision you would have to make based on many questions. Good Luck whatever you do. BW

#4

Originally Posted By: mbailey
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When the initial radon levels in your home measure at over 4.0 pCi/L but under 10.0 pCi/L the EPA recommends that either an additional short term test or a long term test be performed. Short term testing is what was performed at the time of your home inspection, and typically lasts for 48 hours. A long term test is one that takes place for over 90 days and provides a more representative measurement of your homes year round average radon level. Radon levels inside a home will fluctuate throughout the year and in order to confirm that levels are indeed high in your home additional testing should be performed. There are many variables that can affect testing at any time of the year ? these all need taken into consideration.


The EPA recommends that measurements for real estate transactions be performed in the lowest level of the home that is currently suitable for occupancy. The lowest level currently lived in, or a lower level that is not currently used ? but, which a buyer could use without renovation.

I also wish to add to Gerry?s point 1) ? the basement does not necessarily have to be a finished space to be tested. If you intend to use the basement area for any activity that will keep you in that area for extended length of time?such as a workshop, craft area, kids play area, etc?You may not be ?living? in that space but none the less it would still be considered active habitation/usage ? under those circumstances that would be where the testing could be done. Unless you local or state radon testing regulations mandate something else - it is your test and will be your house? you know what areas you are going to utilize and for what. The protocol governing lowest level is the minimum?you can always exceed the minimum.

Radon mitigation is very effective and as Gerry mentioned should be discussed with a mitigation contractor.

Your inspection company should be/should have informed you of all that we have mentioned here as well as educating you and your family about what they are doing as well as the results they are finding.

There are a lot of options and choices in making your decision. Good Luck!

--
Mark Bailey
Stonegate Property Inspections LLC
Ponca, NE

#5

Originally Posted By: Asif2000
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Thanks for all the replies… I really appreciate the help.


The house in fact has been vacant for 3 or 4 months. I do not know if this has contributed to the levels being high.

The tests were done in the basement. Its not finished but I do plan to finish it in the future. Also I plan to use it as my kid's playgroud even while its not finished.

The questions/concerns are:

- if I do use this as a negotiation tool to have the mitigation system installed, is it a forever deal?

- With it running 24-hours a day its going to contribute to my electricity bill

- With the system installed, won't I scare away some of my potential buyers down the road when I put it in the market for sale

- Does it affect the resale value of the house

- In the seller's discloser, I will have to answer yes to the radon related question. It would scare me away buying a house with that disclosed in black and white.

Thanks again for ur responses.

#6

Originally Posted By: ismetaniuk
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This membership was a big waste of my time!

–
Igor


Top To Bottom Inspections


Glen Spey, NY

#7

Originally Posted By: nlewis
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Asif,


The radon results may part of the real estate contract. If the results are not acceptable, the seller may be obligated to mitigate.

The radon system will increase your electric bill and will also increase your heating bill since it depressurizes the house.

In NJ, a mitigation system does not scare away buyers.

Thank god in NJ we only do one test in the basement; if it is above 4.0 on the first test, the house gets mitigated. No subsequent testing needed, according to the DEP.

#8

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Asif2000,


I am not sure what you mean by, "is it a forever deal".

The remediation system that will be installed will be there forever if that is what you mean. The system that is installed will also have to bring the radon levels in the home under the EPA recommended level of 4.0 pc/L.

The remediation systems that are installed use a low wattage fan and will most likely only contribute to a couple of dollars a month on your electric bill.

I have inspected many homes with high radon levels and some with radon remediation systems installed. While I am not a realtor it does not seem to concern those that are purchasing the house as long as the radon levels are under the recommended 4.0 pc/L level.

While I am not a realtor I don't believe it affects the re-sale value of the property, meaning your home will not be worth less because you have a radon remediation system installed than if you did not need that system.

I believe what you are saying is that you know very little about radon, what it is, where it comes from and what you can do about it. If you look up the information on the EPA web site you will find a bunch of useful information there that can answer some of those unknowns that you have about radon.

From the people that I have spoken with that have purchased homes with radon remediation systems installed, they commonly have the home re-tested for radon levels to ensure the system is working correctly.

When you answer the radon question in the seller's disclosure also be sure to disclose the remediation system was installed and you would want to disclose the radon levels that were taken after the system was installed (the company that installs the system usually makes arrangements for a third party to come back and re-test the home which is mandatory according to the EPA guidelines)

Here is the link to the EPA web site:

http://www.epa.gov/iaq/radon/


I believe you are over reacting to the radon issue because of your lack of knowledge about it. Once you read some of those articles on the EPA site you should at least feel more comfortable knowing you can make an informed decision about the radon situation in this home.

Best wishes!

Joe Myers

#9

Originally Posted By: jremas
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Have the seller install a mitigation system, recheck the levels and move into your new home. Don’t sweat the small stuff. This can be fixed.

–



Jeff Remas
REMAS Inspections, Inc.
Northeastern PA & the Poconos
www.NEPAinspector.com

570-362-1598
#10

Originally Posted By: nlewis
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If possible, have the radon piping run through the interior of the house instead of on the exterior of the house. The systems installed on the exterior of the house are just so damn ugly!

#11

Originally Posted By: jhagarty
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icon_question.gif

–
Joseph Hagarty


HouseMaster / Main Line, PA
joseph.hagarty@housemaster.com
www.householdinspector.com

Phone: 610-399-9864
Fax : 610-399-9865

HouseMaster. Home inspections. Done right.
#12

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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As far as follow-up testing is concerned, the most typical methodology for Radon testing associated with a real estate transaction involves deployment of dual measurement devices, and running simultaneous tests. This protocol is valid for charcoal cannisters and electret-ion chambers (E-Perm). Tests which utilize continuos radon monitoring equipment does not require dual testing. Each of these methodologies, which find levels of Radon at 4.0pc/L or higher, warrants mitigation. No follow-up is recommended by the EPA.


Technically speaking, the EPA states that testing should take place on the lowest "lived-in" level or area of the home, not the lowest "habitable" area. It your State requires testing on the lowest "habitable" level, the EPA recommends following the local ordinance.

So, to Mark's point, if dual tests were run, no follow-up testing is needed. These guidelines should be followed for all real estate transactions. Most measurement specialists automatically deploy dual testing devices, unless they are using CRM rechnology. This is why Neal's post is right on the money. Most of the time, if the inspector finds elevated levels, you mitigate.

As to any stigma associated with an installed mitigation system, chances are pretty good that other homes in the area also have elevatd levels. So, don't sweat the small stuff.

#13

Originally Posted By: Asif2000
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Thank you all for replying… It has been very educational for me…


We are having the sellers to do a second tests. We will go forward from there. If the results are still high, we will have them install the mitigation system.

Thanks again to all of you!

![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

#14

Originally Posted By: mhenderson
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I know this might seem trivial but when they do or did the radon test make sure of the weather …did it rain or storm before or during the test …if it was done under any of those conditions it will account for a higher level due to the drop in barometric pressure & the rain will act as a barrier on the surface meaning more gas will enter through into the house…it does make a difference in the readings… just another tid-bit


Mike

#15

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Mike,


That is a good point but in the case where the house is reaching those levels it would still be advisable to remediate the home anyway. While the rain and barometric pressure would play a role in radon levels in the home, I would not skip the remediation just because there was a rain storm for a few nights during the testing.

In that case it would be advantageous for the home owner or buyer to perform another test for a longer duration (such as a few months) to reach a determination if those radon levels are above 4.0 pc/L and how often and for how long are they above those levels.

I do believe that according to the EPA guidelines if they were to come back at 4.0 pc/L or above at any point in time during that testing, remediation is recommended anyway. Most likely it will come back above the 4.0 level anyway so you may just as well go ahead and remediate now and save the expense of additional testing.

Joe Myers

#16

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Mike,


EPA states that if a dual test was performed, and levels ar above 4.0pc/L after a minimum of a 48-hour test duration, mitigation is recommended. To my knowledge, the EPA does not take into account weather or barometric pressure at the time of the test. The concensus is that the drop in atmospheric pressure, or excessive humidity in the air, can have an affect on the test results, but not enough to warrant significantly skewed test results. In actuality, no follow-up testing is recommended PROVIDING that a dual simultansous test had been performed. BTW, the dual test is the protocol for testing for a real estate transaction...

Good point though...

Joe F

#17

Originally Posted By: jhagarty
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icon_question.gif

–
Joseph Hagarty


HouseMaster / Main Line, PA
joseph.hagarty@housemaster.com
www.householdinspector.com

Phone: 610-399-9864
Fax : 610-399-9865

HouseMaster. Home inspections. Done right.
#18

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Joe H.


That is one plus for using the CRM tests for radon. However, when you use the charcoal adsorption such as the tests that I use, it would not be apparent that a storm had occured since it gives you an average over the test period. In this particular case if you are averaging over 4.0 pc/L it would be wise to just go ahead and remediate in the first place. Meaning you would not know it jumped above 4.0 for any given hour during the testing period.

Certainly not even the EPA would begin to suggest that I have to track the current weather conditions at each and every test that I would place. It would be close to impossible to say the least. To take that a step further, if I am aware of storms taking place during the test period I simply leave that test in place for an extra couple of days so if the radon level is not normally higher than the guideline of 4.0 or above the average will bring it back under that level once the radon gas levels back out to its normal level. If you find that even after those few extra days it still is above the guideline of 4.0 you can rest assured that weather did not cause the rise in radon levels in that house, they were already high.

Hagarty, are you trying to piss me off or something? ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Does that make sense?

Joe Myers

#19

Originally Posted By: Asif2000
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I wanted to update you guys on this…


First of all thanks to all for responding.

We had the buyer seal the cracks in the basement since we weren't comfortable with the mitigation system.

I have heard a lot of people telling me that it is a plus to have mitigation system and not a negative. I have a hard time buying this due to the following reasons.

- First of all, existance of a mitigation system in the house is a proof that the exposure of exassive radon gas existed in the house at one point.

- If I did have mitigation system installed and the way I am, I would be testing my house every year to make sure that it really is working. If its not, maintenance of it is an issue.

- The extra use of electricity is another factor.

- I know a friend who tells me he had to reduce the price of a house because he scared away a alot of potential buyers by telling them the mitigation system was inplace to prevent radon gas problem he once had.

Anyway, we had them seal the cracks. They redid te test and it came out 3.9, barely making under the EPA action level of 4.0. We were still not satisfied. This was an hourly monitoring test performed for 48 hours. The numbers fluctaued upto 7s and 8s. The report indicated that the levels may be twice as much high in winter. There was also a "T" in the report which means that the instruments may have been tempered with. I am also an asthma patient and I did not want to have to deal with this, especially on a house as expensive as this one.

As odd as it may sound, despite our realtor advising us otherwise, we backed out of the deal because of this very reason of high radon levels.

Thanks again for all the help...

#20

Originally Posted By: jhagarty
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icon_question.gif

–
Joseph Hagarty


HouseMaster / Main Line, PA
joseph.hagarty@housemaster.com
www.householdinspector.com

Phone: 610-399-9864
Fax : 610-399-9865

HouseMaster. Home inspections. Done right.