Chopping the driven ground

Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Greg Fretwell wrote:
also something the concrete crew can do. They don't have copper wire or acorns. Electricians may not even be contracted yet when this is installed ... just don't tell the electrical inspector.


Not here, with this latest code cycle the crack down has begun.

The builder must hire an electrician to install the uffer even if that means T&M for that part of the job. An electrical permit must be pulled and the electrical inspector has to come out and look at it before the pour.

The state has been sending hand outs out about this profusely and I pity the builder who does not get the message, they told us in class that the state intends to have footings broken up that have not been electrically inspected. ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Bob,


You know i kinda LIKE that idea.......as a EC I get tired of the builder sitting on the fence so to speak when choosing a EC to get the job done and this is sometimes the reason it is NOT done.

They like to wait and choose the EC in some cases way to late and if this were to come of age in our area it would get them off their butts and accept bids faster so the EC could get out their and do the job right.

They just do not understand that a UFER is a good system and EASY for the EC to do....if they just give us time to do it....

Now this brings into the AHJ ruling as if the system is not in place and is poured but WAS available...the new wording is you have to use the systems ( all ) that are available...now since most of the time the EC only come in the house after it is framed.....and well...poured and after other trades have come in....this begs us to have the AHJ rule it was NOT available.......but again IS IT?...sure it was....before they poured so I think it should be as you stated everywhere and trust me EC's would LOVE them for it in the long run.


--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Bob if the attachment to the rebar is made above the concrete I do not see why an electrician needs to be involved at steel time. The code specifically states that the rebar can be tied using usual methods. I would contend that a concrete guy has the tools and skills to tie rebar better than an electrician. Do you have loop ties and a tie tool in your bag?


I bet not.


I agree if you are bringing copper up out of the slab you need a listed clamp and perhaps that requires some electrical skill (in the union sense) to install it but if the connection to the UFER is a turned up rebar extending out of the concrete the electrician is NOT qualified to tie that rebar any more than the concrete guy is qualified to tighten an acorn!


Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Paul, I don’t dissagree that it would be nice if all the subs were contracted before the first shovel full of dirt was moved but I am not sure that is realistic in a booming housing market where the subs are working day to day and have a hard time fulfilling the commitments they made yesterday.


I’m sure you and Bob know where you will be on the first monday in January but that is a rarity around here.


It costs my wife $$350-500 a day (depending on which bean counter is Emailing her) for a house to sit waiting for a missing trade.


They contract on short notice because that is all the trades are willing to commit to. She has one plumbing contractor who des nothing but come in and clean up messes made by others who can’t fullfil their contract.


The standard answer is "we can't get good employees" and with unemployment in the fraction of one percent in construction, that may be true. They are recruiting from the cleanest looking guys in the day labor pool who aren't obviously drunk at work.


Originally Posted By: pabernathy
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Quote:
"subs are working day to day and have a hard time fulfilling the commitments they made yesterday. "


Well I can only speak for my company as stated....in my opinion I do not try to speak about what I am going to do if I can't do it......too many subs are mis-managed anyway with no one grabbing the wheel and is really a issue of planning.

If most G.Contractors know they are building a house and are aware of the new requirements I would suggest they learn to budget their time factor and by notifying the subs ahead of time will lift some of the pressure from the GC to see it gets done.

I agree that most UFERS or Encasements are without the direct supervision of the EC.....however, sometimes it has to do with a GC's non-ability to work with a schedule and let the subs know their role in the process....

My arguement is that many times the GC's know what has to be done and could have submitted plans and requirements ahead of time to the EC so they know what their role is in the construction process and not just from a rough in stand point........

Anyway I do see your point and do agree with portions of it...even if I still contend it is a mis-management of time and could be something a GC pawns off on the sub-contractor....but in waiting PAST the point of designing the rebar grid itself I would hope the GC has rceived bids and have submitted plans to the EC ahead of time....this drops the ball in the EC's lap.........

Anyway......their is never the perfect answer and I agree as a Electrician I do not have a rebar twister in my pouch, truck or office and I really agree that I do not want one either....but I can find time to meet the GC and explain where the panel is located and my concerns and can atleast have some level of assurance the proper location is going to be listed.


--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



As long as the AHJ accepts a turned up rebar stub I see no reason why the electrician needs to be involved, nor the electrical inspector.


The building code specifies how rebar is tied (48 x diameter lap) and the structural inspector is supposed to be verifying that. A simple look at the footer plan should satisfy the electrical inspector as to what rebar is present in the footer.


This is a lot easier anywhere that the southern building code is in force since two #5s are required, and that gets tied to the dowels that go up in the wall. (30" minimum lap). They just use another similar bar for the ground electrode connection.


Originally Posted By: kshepard
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



As far as the turned up steel… if someone fails to tie the bent rod to the rest of the steel, does the concrete in which it’s encased have no value as a ground?


In other words depending on what you’re pouring, how much steel needs to be encased in a concrete structure to provide an adequate ground for a home? If one poured a patio could a ufer be incorporated into the slab?


Kent


Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



This has to be tied to the footer steel to be useful as an electrode but since the structural inspector will be looking at 40-50 other structural uprights that are required to be tied to footer steel this will not be anything special. That is why they have to paint it green.


If it wasn’t tied I am not sure how it would stay there anyway.


It is just harder to do it wrong than it is to do it right. That is why they like the turned up steel as opposed to a copper wire. Places that are not on the southern building code may not have upright steel as part of the normal process so they may have more problems.


I will try to get some pictures the next time I am up at the job site.


Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



As for “how much?”, you need a minimum of 20’ in the concrete, near the bottom. If this was a patio that would be fine as long as the plastic sheet under the slab (if used) didn’t extend under the area with the steel. They usually pour a “bell footer” here with the perimeter twice as deep as the “slab” part with the steel in it to act as the footer part on a monoslab house (footer and slab in one pour). They would not have plastic under the footer part.


The other way is a stem wall where a normal footer is poured and block comes up from there. No plastic at all, would be at footer level. The floor slab goes on top of “X” courses of block with the plastic under that.



BTW the best Ufer you can have is a concrete swimming pool but they hate calling that an electrode, even though it gets bonded to the electrical system via the EGCs.


Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Greg Fretwell wrote:
As long as the AHJ accepts a turned up rebar stub I see no reason why the electrician needs to be involved, nor the electrical inspector.


Here in MA they do not share your view.

If I wanted to use the turned up rebar method I would still need an electrical inspection of the footing to verify that the turned up section is indeed tied to the other steel.

I need the electrical inspector to put his signature on the building permit.

The fact that the building inspector verified the structural requirements does not fill in that spot on the building card.

That said what you say makes sense and I am sure it works, it just would not fly out here. (most times)


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Bob I hate to bring up the “U” word but why else would an electrician be tying rebar when the NEC says a concrete encased electrode “shall be permitted to be bonded together by the usual steel tie wires”. Do you have the “usual steel wires” on your truck? I know I never received any training in tying rebar as part of my electrical inspector CEUs. In fact the proper way to tie rebar is not even addressed by NFPA70.


I agree, if you are putting the connection of the GEC in the concrete you need that inspected but if your code allows connection to an exposed piece of rebar that was "bonded together by the usual steel tie wires" I see no reason for the EC or the electrical inspector to be involved until the GEC connection is made.
Just because the IBEW convinced Mass to put this boondoggle in the code, does not make it right.

BTW what happens when that GEC, properly inspected and approved, gets broken by a mason? (or stolen by a copper thief)
Are you going to tear down a building, to expose 20' of rebar for inspection, because a homeless person wanted a quarter's worth of copper?


Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Greg I doubt highly this is an IBEW thing and I am always suspicious of that.


It comes down to this.

The NEC describes how the Uffer is to be constructed, the electrical inspector has to see it to verify it is constructed to the NECs specifications.

No I do not have to tie it, the steel guys can tie the rebars, (by the way I do have the steel wire they use in my truck, it is handy for many things) the inspector still has to see it.

I will try to find the hand out that I got on this issue at my code update class.

If the copper gets stolen it is no big deal, the electrode would have already been looked at and passed. I would simply have an apprentice chisel out enough of the copper to cad weld on more copper.


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



OK I guess if that is what the AHJ says it goes but it still doesn’t make sense to a country boy. The whole point of the Ufer is it uses an ordinary piece of rebar, tied in the normal manner that the structural inspector is looking for. It sounds lke a wasted trip for the EC and the electrical inspector if the structural inspector is doing his job.


That's nothing. The electrical inspectors here think an electrician bonds the pool steel too. It is done by the guy who "steels" the pool.


Originally Posted By: joetedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



[not allowed to post


Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Thank you Joe the hand out I was given was part of those 13 paragraphs.


I think this paragraph sums it up nicely.

Quote:
Further, this work, including verification of the suitability of the tie wiring on the components of the electrode, must be inspected by a municipal Inspector of Wires prior to the completion of the concrete pour. If this process is not followed, the consequences could be severe, potentially resulting in a requirement to dismantle and rebuild the foundation.


The electrode is not the connection, the electrode is the steel in the concrete, the only way to ensure it meets the NEC is to have it inspected. ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I suppose you folks will have to get the water line into the building and the structural steel inspected by the electrical inspector to see if it is done right too icon_wink.gif


How else will you know if there is 10 feet of water pipe in the dirt or if the building steel is effectively grounded?



BTW I am still confused about this. If you use the "rebar extending out of the concrete" method does the electrician install that piece of rebar? Who provides the material?


Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Greg good question as to the water line, all the commercial work I do uses copper or black iron for the water mains.


I don't know about what is currently happening in dwelling units.

As far as the steel rebar, the steel guys supply it and install it, I (well the company) pull a permit and call for inspection of the steel guys work.

All that the inspector cares is if we have 20' of rebar tied together, and as you said we will.

I have never used the upturned rebar method, we always cad weld copper to the rebar in the pour, it is generally in the job specs for us.

The typical building we build will get a 4/0 bare copper around the entire perimeter. From that will be 4/0 to 4 Taps to each steel column location, there will also be taps from the ground ring into the ufffer in numerous places.

Finally there will be two 4/0 taps from the ring on opposite sides of the building brought to the service location.

Oh yeah often a connection to the lightning protection system.

All of this the inspector wants to see.


Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I agree with you, in a commercial building, lots of things happen that never happen in a 1&2 family.


In a residence the turned up rebar is probably going to be the standard. There are just too many trades and too little supervision to trust a copper wire will survive until the panel is set.


The Fl IAEI tossed this around and that turned out to be the best answer anyone could come up with. It also allows the GEC to be replaced if it is damaged or if some renovation occurs that moves the service disconnect or meter.


You are not going to find many residential electricians who have the molds for an exothermic weld.


I guess the real question is, do you guys even have steel in a dwelling footer? This may be moot for you.


Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Greg Fretwell wrote:

I guess the real question is, do you guys even have steel in a dwelling footer? This may be moot for you.


It has been awhile but as I remember the typical residential footing around here is 24" wide by 12" thick and has just two rows of rebar installed length way near the bottom.

Also keep in mind almost all homes here have full basements with poured concrete walls, very few basements here use CMUs as a construction method.

It would still be possible to upturn a piece of steel from the footing into the basement for future construction.

I do agree few residential guys will have the cad weld stuff, I never used it until moving to commercial work.

The company I work for now has so many the shelf is starting to sag. ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

![](upload://oZ3DANv9Qj8FrwVqKeHExLR8c9V.jpeg)

That is probably half of them as many will always be out on the job.