This is my bread and butter its a double pole breaker for a cook stove I find two to three of these a week the constant cycling of amp draw on these breakers will over time become loose and this is the results. Cook stove breakers are the worlds worst for having loose connections and the brand of breaker makes no difference.
I do take amp readings on every panel I scan even if it means going on the roof with a amp meter and if I find a hot breaker that perks my interest I take a amp reading on the individual CB
BTW I never really cared about any SOP I am hired to find problems and I do what it takes
This is exactly the point we are constantly trying to get across in all the “I want to do thermal scans. What’s the cheapest infrared camera I can buy?” threads.
I know the HI is trying to cover their backside, but to call a 13 amp load on a 15 amp breaker excessive is ridiculous. When the amp clamp was installed it should have given an indication if the connection was loose. A trained eye should be able to compare the screw connection to others in the panel for a reference as far as amount of threads shown.
Who said anything about it being “excessive”? Don’t read into it what is not there - that would be a “ridiculous” thing to do. A load of 15+ amps I would call excessive for non-continuous load circuit in an unoccupied house.
If you don’t like the NETA Maintenance Testing Standards for thermal exceptions, what standard do you propose using? The temperature delta is what it is.
What does the “trained eye” tell you about the thermal exception in this image? Show us how you would document based on your observation.
Then you probably have no basis to characterize what I had to say about it “ridiculous” either.
The “indicates possible excessive load or loose connection” verbiage is a generic preamble to the the commentary of a thermal exception in an electrical panel (I can tweak this to better clarify). The description of the actual defect in relation to the observed load was that it was a “heavy load”.
I consider 87% of rated capacity of a L&R circuit in an unoccupied dwelling to be a heavy load, wouldn’t you?
I see nothing to support that the house was unoccupied, nor was a circuit description given for that circuit. There are many things that run regardless of the house being occupied. This could have been simply lights turned on while the inspection was taking place. There is no reason the circuit could not be loaded to 100% if it is not considered continuous.
Then it was foolish and unwarranted of you to weigh in with your opinion based on information that was not available to you. Had I been seeking your guidance or approval, I would have provided you with adequate information to do so. As it was, I posted it in response to Robert’s comment “I don’t recall ever seeing someone mention that they also checked the conductor ampacity and compared that the reading provided by the instrument.” I did not post for you to “grade my paper” in public.
The temperature delta alone places it as a priority 3 on the NETA Maintenance Testing Standard as a probable deficiency. Again, if you don’t like the NETA standard, tell me what standard you do like then demonstrate how you would apply it.
What got your underwear in a bunch? I can’t help it if you don’t supply information about whether the house is occupied or vacant and what the circuit controls. You seem concerned that a 13 amp load is too much for a 15 amp breaker or that a 32 degree rise on a breaker listed for a 40 degree rise is too much. I told you I don’t do thermography , but the loads and rise are within design limits according to the UL and NEC.
You should refrain from use of the term ridiculous in public to characterize what someone else has said if you can’t fully substantiate your position. If you’re going to use term like that, you damn well better have your own ducks in a row and not be filling in the blanks with assumptions. Neither you or I know what else might be on that circuit (range hood, microwave, whatever) that might be in use when the house is occupied. The observed load may or may not represent the maximum likely load, but it’s at the margin.
Once again, if you don’t believe that the NETA Standard for Maintenance Testing Specification is valid for determining and describing a thermal exception, then come out and say so, then tell us what in your qualified view is a valid reference standard.
Seems like a stupid presumption for you to think you’re going to throw the term “ridiculous” out there in a public forum an not expect an in-your-face challenge in response. Remember: I never sought your opinion or assessment in the first place. You chose to jump in with it on your own.
That load is not at it’s margin. Look how long a typical breaker will hold at 125% on the trip curve and still be within spec. As far as what else could be on that circuit, do you check every circuit for installed and potential load? What happens when a 15 amp circuit has a 6 amp load on it and someone vacuums with a 12 amp vacuum? Is the circuit now a defect in your world?
I know maybe the NEC should call for at least 12.5 amps of headroom in case someone plugs in a 1500 watt space heater and limit circuits to simplex receptacles so two heaters can’t be plugged into one circuit. After all we are going to play the what if game.
Guys this posting started out very informative, then went down hill rapidly.
I’m making a wild ast guess that 90% of the home inspectors on this board OR almost any home inspection board would have no clue as to what you all are referring to AND as several of you have already mentioned, goes well beyond a home inspection SoP and gets into the specialist range with different specialists arguing their specialty over another.
So far Charley’s post was the most understandable for the average home inspector.
For general conversation if most home inspectors had a way of measuring temperatures of breakers AND every time they saw a 5 degree temperature difference on breakers in a panel … AND called it out for an electrician to service, evaluate, etc, … we’d have a whole bunch of wild goose chases.
Now you’re simply being preposterous and absurd. Next time you want to challenge me publicly on a thermographic observation, do your homework. I’ve told you four times now that I referenced the NETA standard. You apparently have no meaningful response other than to admit that you don’t do thermography and you have no basis to judge.
I agree Dan, most of this is way beyond SOP.
I’m not going to be using an amp meter and IR for a standard home inspection.
As far as my using an IR thermometer to check CB temps, who knows?
The link I posted from Fluke suggests that a five degree variation from ambient is an issue. I think that’s baloney. Most of the panels I scan will show that much variation.
Mr. Pope says even 50 degrees variation can be ok in some circumstances.
I’ll keep checking though.
I rarely find any temps outside of a narrow range.
If I do then I’ll consider what the possibilities are and go from there.
As a past hvac factory rep I do carry (seldom use) things like amp probes, etc.
Every once in a while I’ll pull it out for checking for blown fuses; checking heat strips on an electric furnace; amp draw on a blower; voltage or amp draw on a breaker; checking for balanced load on each side of breaker panel; checking 3 phase to see where my wild leg is; etc BUT that is rare and out beyond the SoP, and well beyond what our average home inspector is trained or equipped to do…
