crack in brick

Originally Posted By: wcampbell
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Had a house yesterday that is slab on grade. Brick exterior. The mortar has a hailine crack running down and one brick is cracked.


I would not have been so concerned if it had just been the mortar, but the cracked brick is what bothered me.

The other thing is that about 4 ft to the right is where the garage starts. About 5 ft from the exterior crack is a hairline crack in the slab that runs all the way across the garage.

I called for an evaluation from a PE. Was I over reacting?

http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/0brick1.JPG

http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/0brick2.JPG

http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/0garagefloor.JPG


--
This Ole House-Home Inspections
William A. Campbell TREC # 6372
Serving the Texas Coastal Bend
(361) 727-0602 (home)
(361) 727-0055 (office)
(361) 229-4103 (cell)

Originally Posted By: lwilliams
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Hey William,


Did you notice anything else in the area around and above the crack in the brick? Evidence of water, downspouts spilling out in the area? How old is the home, how long has it been in that location? Had it been move there or built there? What is the lay of the land? Level? Sloped? All these things contribute to cracks of all sorts and can help determine whether there is a major concern or a maintenance issue. Use all the clues provided, put them into perspective and then decide on your call. A house that is on a level site that has been there for 40 years with a hairline crack and one sheared brick would most likely be a maintenance issue, a newer home on a sloped lot could ask for more investigation. Maybe the downspout/gutter system is not functioning properly in the area and is damaging the bricks (another maintenance issue) Any other comments out there on this one?


Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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To me it looks like normal building movement. From the pictures it looks like the crack is less than 1/16" in width, and the key to me is that there doesn’t look like any differential separation. It also looks like it starts around a window which is a common area for settlement cracks. In the picture I can’t even see the garage floor crack. Is the garage floor a structural slab, or is it a floating slab? And Lisa asks a good question, how old was the house?


From what I see I would not have called for an engineer, but then I wasn't there and it ain't my butt on the line.


Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Hi Will,


without knowing all the facts and not having put the mark 1 eyeball over it, I probably would not have called for a PE on that one, as blaine said the cracks appear to be very small and not showing much displacement, also I would not be concerened too much about the cracked brick, the crack has formed along the line of least resistance and found a brick that is a little weaker that the mortar, that is all.

like Blaine said however it's your a$% on the line and everybody needs to operate within their own comfort level.

I must admitt that I have frequently called for "further monitoring" on cracks that I am sure are not a problem but not prepared to risk my life on, and it certainly would have been a mistake not to have put anything in the report.

Regards

Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

Originally Posted By: wcampbell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Thanks for the replies.


The house was built in 1968. It is on sandy loam. Garage is poured with the rest of the slab. There are no rain gutters. It is level land.

I told the client that it may be nothing to be concerned about, but if he wanted a better assesment of it then to get a PE.

CYA--Cover Your Actions ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


--
This Ole House-Home Inspections
William A. Campbell TREC # 6372
Serving the Texas Coastal Bend
(361) 727-0602 (home)
(361) 727-0055 (office)
(361) 229-4103 (cell)

Originally Posted By: jpope
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A more efficient solution next time you run across cracks such as these, might be to simply recommend monitoring (as Gerry said) instead of a PE. I think Lisa put it best, it’s an overall evaluation of the existing conditions that warrant the level of our recommendations.


Protecting our ASSets is always an important issue but we don't want to develop reputations as "alarmists." This would not be beneficial to us nor our clients. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

FYI - From what I can see in your pictures, my report would have noted these as "common cracks."


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: rpierson
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What the hell do you know Pope!? icon_eek.gif


You act like an ITA Grad or something! ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

Great call though. All good sound advice! Especially Lisa! Great Info!

See ya Sunday Pope!

Randy


Originally Posted By: dvalley
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William,


Good advice from our fellow members concerning hairline cracks. If the crack was more 3/16 or 1/4 inch wide and running through more than one brick, then I would become highly concerned. ![](upload://2ubpHK3yn8KBPErH5FUvdHPsrJn.gif)

This is more of what you are looking for...
http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/brick_crack.jpg


--
David Valley
MAB Member

Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."

Originally Posted By: Guest
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Gentlemen:


Unless you are licensed civil/structural engineers you can not put forth any type of decision or opinion about the structural worthiness or integrity of a building, foundation, facade or other building components.

The correct response should be to suggest that a licensed professional structural engineer inspect the crack and opine on the structural integrity of the crack and structure.

All cracks typically start out as hairline cracks and worsen with time and prevailing conditions. The reason(s) for the formation of the crack may not be obvious to anyone without an engineering background.

Making suggestions without having actually seen the crack, surrounding environment and conditions is not a prudent thing to do.

Joseph L. Micikas, P.E.
KMS Engineering Consultants, Inc.
866-344-7606


Originally Posted By: jpope
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Quote:
opinion about the structural worthiness or integrity of a building, foundation, facade or other building components.

We were giving our opinion as to the severity of the crack based on information and pictures provided in the original post.

Quote:
The correct response should be to suggest that a licensed professional structural engineer inspect the crack and opine on the structural integrity of the crack and structure.

With this, I must disagree. We use our experience and training to evaluate all surrounding and/or related conditions to provide a reasonable recommendation.

In my opinion, it would be inappropriate for us to call for an engineer every time we found a crack in concrete or bricks.

Quote:
All cracks typically start out as hairline cracks and worsen with time and prevailing conditions.

Not all cracks worsen. In fact, reinforced concrete or brick will crack up to the reinforcing steel. Unless (or until) the reinforcing steel fails, the crack will remain "as is."

Quote:
Making suggestions without having actually seen the crack, surrounding environment and conditions is not a prudent thing to do.

Every post in this thread, including yours ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif) , is guilty of this. It's all in an effort to help one another. Personally, I learn things while I participate - even when giving advice (or opinions)


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: dvalley
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Quote:
The reason(s) for the formation of the crack may not be obvious to anyone without an engineering background.


I may need an engineering background to determine the cause of all cracks, but determining causes of cracks is not what we do. We?re there to determine the structural integrity of any/all defective cracked bricks or walls.

Quote:
Unless you are licensed civil/structural engineers you can not put forth any type of decision or opinion about the structural worthiness or integrity of a building, foundation, facade or other building components.


I always base my decision as to whether or not an Engineer evaluation is necessary, by inspecting the overall defective area. Most cracks do not require an Engineers evaluation. Some major cracks do require attention. But, most of us have trained eyes and structural knowledge to determine structural defects! We know what to look for on our observations and what call to make. If uncertain or not sure, recommend further evaluation.

Quote:
The correct response should be to suggest that a licensed professional structural engineer inspect the crack and opine on the structural integrity of the crack and structure.



I'm not a professional Engineer but I do know what may be considered to be structurally deficient. I do not tell my clients to hire an engineer for every crack that is seen in a foundation. If I did, they would be evaluating 25% of my houses, which I personally think is totally unnecessary.

When I inspect ?new construction? poured concrete walls with cracks, I will always recommend monitoring over the next few years, as shifting may occur. These ?new construction? cracks are unpredictable as to how the wall will react to the surroundings, so monitoring is always advisable. Not an Engineers opinion, unless of course, the wall gets worse over time.

Out of 500 homes that I have inspected, I have referred a Structural Engineer a total of four times. One, for major cracks in a foundation block wall and the other three for beams and girders that were not properly supported.

Engineers are well trained professionals, and we will call upon you when deemed necessary.
![](upload://4bNnp9gECS2nLWwNFT99nQHaMF8.gif)


--
David Valley
MAB Member

Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."

Originally Posted By: dbowers
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One problem that is getting very noticable in my area, is the common misuse of the term Structural Engineer. Many realestators, lenders, buyers, sellers, attorneys, appraisers and even Home Inspectors make the sad mistake of calling any licensed engineer with the P.E. designation - a structural engineer.


I grew up in a heavy equipment construction family. Our main line of work was foundations, roads and highways. I've had engineers working with us and for us since I was 14 years old. As home inspections have gotten more frequent and as the economy has declined and many firms have been laying off people or downsizing - I'm seeing a lot of PE's get into HI. There are over 45 engineering degrees that I'm aware of - most have nothing whatsoever to do with the many facets that make up a residential building, or the degree only covers one facet of the building (such as electrical engineering). Some engineering degrees don't have anything to do with what we do (like hydraulics, or nuclear, or marine, or
metallurgical, or pharmaceutical, or software design, etc).

I'm sure most of these folks were good at what they did - but most of these folks were engineers with backgrounds in something other than residential home inspection. During the average visual home inspection there is no engineering performed even if the home inspection is done by a licensed PE. I'm starting to see many PE's regardless of their background education call themselves "Structural Engineers" when they start doing HI's. Anybody else got this issue.

Oh by the way - I'm not a doctor, but when I saw an 18 wheeler hit a deer and the head was on the north side of the highway and the body on the south side of the highway - I didn't fell like I was practicing medicine to say "THE DEER HAS MAJOR HEALTH PROBLEMS AND LOOKS DEAD".

Dan Bowers (Kansas City)


Originally Posted By: ecrofutt
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When I first started I referred a couple of foundation issues to a structural engineer. Now, I NEVER refer to an engineer.


Why? Because both times, my clients called me back pissed. The engineer showed up, said, "Yup you got a problem. You need to get a foundation contractor out here to look at it." Took their $300 bucks and left.



Now I use the following language and adapt it for various trades.


I recommend that a qualified foundation contractor, (who utilizes the services of a licensed structural engineer to design repairs), be contacted to determine the need for any repairs, determine the best repair method, estimate costs and perform any repairs deemed necessary.




I too, have ran into the metallurgical engineer or marine engineer, neither of whose practice has a danged thing to do with homes and home inspections or home construction put themselves forward as an expert home inspector because they have the P.E. designation.

Thank god for the engineers that put their talents to use bettering society but, just like home inspectors, realtors, lawyers, plumbers, etc, they've also got their problem children in the profession.


--
Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspections
Georgetown, Kentucky

www.b4uclose.com

Originally Posted By: cradan
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



a P.E.) in industrial flow, pumping and piping systems (environmental remediation). Refineries, heavy manufacturing plants, nuclear energy plants, waste treatment plants, landfills, Superfund clean-ups, ad infinitum. Most of those twelve years were spent working for and with P.E.'s. Many (not all) of them were more than happy to have me design, specify, estimate, purchase, install, test, Q.A/Q.C., troubleshoot and otherwise handle these complex systems. Ultimately, their stamp (when there was one) went on the “work”, but guess who did the “work?”


This is in no way an insult to professional engineers who have worked for, earned and reached some mastery within their area of specialization & expertise. As Erby indicated, the best of these are (in my not so humble opinion) unbelievable from a talent and capability standpoint.

I suppose the bigger issue I have with your post, Joseph, is your suggestion that home inspectors who are non-licensed civil/structural P.E.'s can't "put forth any type of decision or opinion about the structural worthiness or integrity of a building, foundation, facade or other building components."Doubtless if one reads the Professional Regulation Standards in most U.S. states literally, your statement would be considered accurate as it was proferred. In real life, however, given a choice of a professional home inspector with typical training, specialized education and hundreds and hundreds of fee-paid inspections on like properties vs. a P.E. with 5 or 10 such residential inspections looking at my cracks, my money'd be on the H.I. every time for a more experienced opinion on whether I'd be best-served (as a home buyer) to take further action at the time of (or after) the inspection. Like it or not, Joseph, we spend much of our professional inspection careers rendering opinions on the overall condition of such systems and components. We'd certainly be out of our professional (and legal) area of expertise in trying to render estimates of failure probabilities, etc., but under most circumstances, many H.I.'s are more than well-qualified to express an opinion to their paying clients as to whether those clients would be best-served in contacting a licensed engineer or other professional services provider.

Regards,


--
Chris
http://www.inspect4me.com
Chicago Illinois Home Inspections

Originally Posted By: dbowers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



We forgot to mention one very important fact. Most building codes or design criteria were established under the supervision or direct guidance of licensed engineers so the field layperson does not have to be one.


Can you imagine the costs and needless lost time involved every time an HVAC contractor checked out an a/c unit and determined it was not cooling up to snuff, AND - if they had to call an engineer to pull a heating and cooling load on the house.

Or, what if the electrician went on an electrical complaint call and found 3 burned wires in the panel, AND had to call an electrical engineer to render an opinion before fixing it.

I'm not a design engineer and don't want to be - but when I come into a house and find a poured concrete foundation wall with diagonal pressure bowing cracks 1/2" wide and the 8" thick wall has moved inward 4" - its no longer performing its intended function and needs repair. NO I won't be telling you how to repair it, but the typical repairs will often include ........ Now as Erby said, you folks need a competent foundation contractor that uses a structural engineer for his design to evaluate this and repair or replace as needed. There are simple design and building formulas to determine when the movement is outside the normal realm.

Dan BOwers