Deck callout. What would you do.

Originally Posted By: wdecker
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I don’t know if this is a question for structure, Ethics or Legal, so I am posting it on all three.


Client buying a flip house. Flipper remodeled, mostly cosmetic. Added deck (about 20 x 20) over back porch (poured concrete steps). Deck has footings, but posts just sitting on them (not secured with metal) and central posts (3) listing about 10 degrees out of plumb. Deck joists secured with screws (through rim joist to supporting joists) and no metal hangers. Over all, an amateur job, typical of the 'flippers' in our area.

Along with a few other defects (added 25 x 15 portion, electrical having now ground, no crawlspace access under added portion, basement finished but enclosed ductwork does not allow doors to open fully, open vent on return duct near furnace, no GFCIs in the Kitchen) and my knowledge of flippers in this area, I recommended that the buyer check out with the local village building department if there were any permits pulled for this work. There were not.

I was concerned that the buyer would be buying a lot of liability (code violations, fines for non-permitted work) along with the house.

The buyer has decided to back out of the sale. He also informed the building dept about the house and they are going to inspect it, at least the deck which is on the outside.

What do you do with regards to flippers who do extensive work without permits? Is it within our duty of service to inform our clients that they should check, or have their lawyers check, on permits. (permits, around here, are public records and open to anyone who wants to pay the $3.00 copying fee).

NEWS FLASH: The Realtor called me and said that the buyer is backing out. The Realtor understands and is not blaming me. He is also a close friend of the buyer.


--
Will Decker
Decker Home Services
Skokie, IL 60076
wjd@DeckerHomeServices.com

Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Hi to all,


Will, I would have and do do exactly as you did, sometimes the buyer is upset that you killed their deal, they are making an emotional descision not always a rational one, they will come to appreciate that you saved them from some potential problems, isn't that what tey paid you for?

Regards

Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

Originally Posted By: wdecker
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Thanks Gerry;


Sometimes one just needs to have their correct actions reinforced.

Do you have any knowledge of how this would go down if the buyer bought the place? Fines on the new owner? Pressure to fix the issues. do the code inspectors in your area 'troll' for new owners?

Thanks;


--
Will Decker
Decker Home Services
Skokie, IL 60076
wjd@DeckerHomeServices.com

Originally Posted By: ckratzer
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Will,


Maybe you could suggest to the potential buyers of a rehabbed house that they request a one year warranty.Not on the whole house but on the changes and improvements made.

If the seller balks that, to me, would be a red flag .If he/she won't stand behind the work I'd start asking questions... then... run the other way.

Cheremie


Originally Posted By: wdecker
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I would think that asking for copies of the permits and invoces from the conractors doing the work would suffice. If these are not produced, would not that tell it all?



Will Decker


Decker Home Services


Skokie, IL 60076


wjd@DeckerHomeServices.com

Originally Posted By: ckratzer
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Will,


Yeah, one would like to think that permits and invoices tell all but neither of those things make a craftsman a better craftsman.


If you could place yourself in the buyers shoes and in the frame of mind that, as a buyer ,you may know absolutely nothing about how to define quality then you know you're at somone elses mercy.
Homes are a huge investment for most folks and some are just barely able to make the #'s work to get into their homes.The last thing a buyer needs is for there home to fall apart before the ink is dry on a sales agreement. In the meantime Mr./Mrs. rehab is laughing all the way to the bank and held to no accountability.

Personally, as a builder/general contractor I am required by law to warranty a new home for one year.I have rehabbed old homes as well and the industry standards are just not the same.
Why is that?

I think It's just as important to have a warranty on a rahab as it is on new.

And isn't it funny that when something does go wrong it often ends up in the HI's lap. The HI didn't do the work. The HI can't truly know the house in the few short hours the inspection takes.

I just think it's a good thing to have a safety in place.


Originally Posted By: pdickerson
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You absolutely did the right thing Will. I run into that frequently. There are tons of “homeowner specials” in my little rural community. Most with no permits and quite a few were done by folks with limited knowledge in the trades. If I suspect any unpermitted work was done on a home, I always point it out verbally and inform my client that they will be taking on some risk if in fact that is the case. In the last few years, the county has starting cracking down hard on unpermitted work. I know of several people that have had to pay out very hefty fines and/or tear down a project after it was nearly complete. I don’t want that to happen to a client of mine.


Originally Posted By: loconnor
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With all these real estate programs being offered, “How to buy and flip Real Estate”, etc., you’re probably going to see more of this kind of “home handyman” work throughout the country. Our area is prime for real estate investment. But most buyers have local contractors do most of the work. Then they use these as vacation homes for a few years before they sell them. Others are buying 5-7 homes at a time. So keep your eyes and ears open.



Larry


Western Michigan NACHI Chapter


http://www.w-michigan-nachi.org


"We confide in our strength
without boasting of it.
We respect that of others
without fearing it"
Thomas Jefferson

Originally Posted By: pbolliger
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I am seeing more and more of this one commercial that promotes this scheme:


You can buy a fixer upper house with help from this "company".. They " buy" the house and YOU fix it up to sell.. You divide the "profit" and get rich doing it.. hmmmm

What do you think is going on here... Quality repair / contractor/ or just any guy with a little knowledge and a tool box ... ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)

I have seen rehab work that you would think the three stooges did.. Ever see a kitchen with no electrical receptacles or drawers that hit a window still and can't open due to that... Vinyl siding that was installed so poorly that yellow jackets used the gap between the joints to make a easy nest..


Originally Posted By: John Bowman
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Quote:
I was concerned that the buyer would be buying a lot of liability (code violations, fines for non-permitted work) along with the house.

The buyer has decided to back out of the sale. He also informed the building dept about the house and they are going to inspect it, at least the deck which is on the outside.


You gave a great example of how to recognize possible improvements that a permit may or may not have been pulled for.

My questions to you in general are:

1. Do you recommend a permit search on all homes you inspect? Even improvements that meet every standard and exhibit quality craftsmanship require a permit.

2. Doesn't the home buyer assume liablilty for the good just as much as the bad? (What if there was no permit on the quality craftsmanship)?

3. Do you recommend a permit search only on obvious poor construction techniques or on all your reports.



Please, tell us how you address this.


Originally Posted By: wdecker
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Pat;


I only do this when I see an obvious flipper. I check on the appraisial public records and find thelast sale date and price for the house. If the house (as was the example) was last sold 6-8 months ago, it just micgh be a flipper.

If I see less than professional work or work that is all cosmetic and no underlying substance, it just might be an owner DIYer, which could also mean permit problems. I have a general disclaimer, that informs the buyer to check on old permits, but I only stress it, verbally, if I see something that is a mess.

Has an inspect today. House built in 1895, Victorian Stick style, that had been converted to two rental units. Granular fiberboard siding that had no caulking of sealing around the windows (can you say 'organic growth consistant with mold'). Rotted sills and sashes. Back porch enclosed and finished to part of the kitchen. Old, flex SE cable ober the newer (less than 6 years) siding (must be put in rigid significantg remodeling is done). NO grounding of 2nd floor unit outlets. NO GFCIs. Brick knee walls over older, pargec, concrete foundation with more efflorecense than mortar.

Sure, I mention permits. Especially in Chicago, where the motto is 'where's mine'.


Originally Posted By: jhagarty
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William:


It should not matter if New Construction, Homeowner or "Flipper".

It does not matter what the age of the home is or how long the previous Owner held Title to the Property. Reporting remains the same.

Substandard work is reported consistently as what it is...Substandard with a recommendation for further review and repair / replacement as needed.


--
Joseph Hagarty

HouseMaster / Main Line, PA
joseph.hagarty@housemaster.com
www.householdinspector.com

Phone: 610-399-9864
Fax : 610-399-9865

HouseMaster. Home inspections. Done right.

Originally Posted By: ecrofutt
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In regards to the particular topic of recommending permit searches, I recommend it anytime I see any obviious improvements/remodeling/additions. Quality of work really doesn’t play into it. Even licensed contractors who do quality work frequently skip the permit process.



Erby Crofutt


B4U Close Home Inspections


Georgetown, Kentucky



www.b4uclose.com

Originally Posted By: ecrofutt
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



In regards to the particular topic of recommending permit searches, I recommend it anytime I see any obviious improvements/remodeling/additions. Quality of work really doesn’t play into it. Even licensed contractors who do quality work frequently skip the permit process.