Did anyone see the..

21

Terrorism is intended to do just what the word implies—terrorize. By responding to 9-11 as we have seems to me to be a knee-jerk reaction. The one-trillion spent in Iraq would have been better spent on a reasoned and sensible solution to the border problem, among other things. As one (forced) retired general stated, “Why commit ourselves to a long-term quagmire in Iraq when we had him contained on the cheap?” The ‘noble’ cause of bringing freedom and democracy to a people who have never experienced it, and whose culture is diametrically opposed to it, is just so much propaganda. What is and will remain to be of paramount importance is controlling the flow of the oil that fuels our economy, all noble ideals aside. As for the simplistic view that the choice is “fighting them over there or over here,” the terrorists can not mount any greater threat than they already do. We will fight them “over here” much better by redirecting our resources from “over there.” The idea of subverting their effectiveness by taking away their free base of operations in Afghanistan was a good one, but this pathological fixation on Saddam Hussein effectively screwed all that up.

On the border issue, we can not expect, and will not get, a significant law which cuts illegal immigration to any measureable degree. There are too many vested interests which now depend on immigrant labor, legal or not. Any law enacted will be ambiguously worded and laxly enforced. The “Great Wall of America” may force illegal immigration from the south to go aquatic, but I doubt that it will even acheive this. The best solution remains the same as it has always been—force employers to validate the credentials of every crew member they hire, not just the one person they contract with, who then brings in his crew of illegals. Put the onus on the backs of the employers. The simple fact is, we won’t ever see this solution, because so many vested interests have come to depend on immigrant labor. We all know how that game is played, and the builders love it, as do the farmers who hire seasonal help.

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Jimmy,

Excellent points!!!

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ES and Jimmy B if we did things according to the way you think then the usa would have lost the battle already. we would give up our freedom for the sake of a dollar, we would be boxed in like a bird in a cage surrounded by cats waiting for us to stick our heads out. america goes much farther than the coast that surrounds us, we have people all over the world, we have businesses all over the world, the day the u.s. economy fails much of the world will go with us. yes our economy is powered by oil, it was built by it and it lives on it. you say the fight is over oil,i say shouldn’t it be worth fighting for? should we give up our way of life overnight just because a bunch of punks with car bombs threaten us. prove your selves. are you ready to give up your way of life? the cost of the war in dollars is cheap compared to what it would cost us if we let the enemy keep killing us at will. have you forgotten so soon about the acts commited in the past, the hi-jackings, the athletes in munich, the marine barracks in lebanon, the handicap man thrown off a cruise ship, 911,1993, lockerbie,bali, london,kenya, spain, afghanistan, the u.s.s. cole the iran hostages in 1979,iraq? will you blame all that on G.W. ?should we abandon israel? i think you forget to soon, i think you are narrow minded in your solutions. the fact is we have had our noses bloodied long before the iraq war to many times,without doing anything about it. i personally believe these attacks will continue until we put aside our fears of how the world feels about us, quit trying to be politically correct and last but not least stop woorying about collateral damage by killing innocent civilians. i keep hearing this bull about the people of so and so country are not our enemies, hogwash! just as our government is by the people so is theirs! some say no no no they have no choice, i say again hogwash! we need to make them make a choice, the wrath of the u.s. or the wrath of a dictator. we need to tell them that if they allow terrorist to use their soil to train and plan to harm us then they should expect organized terror from us regardless of collateral damage. we need to remind them of the score since 911; the U.S. 2 buildings down, 8 damaged, 4 commercial planes, 3000 citizens killed, 3500 soldiers killed, 2 trillion dollars, and Americans still celebrating the 4th of july in peace versus 2 countries occupied, 1 dictator hung 1 terrorist leader hiding in caves, all terrorist leaders sleeping in a different house every night in fear, 2 armys lost, 700,000 killed, hundreds of dead terrorist, numerous cities laid to waste and counting, and we haven’t even used our weapons of mass destruction yet. some say we had saddam contained after desert shield we should have left him alone. we defeated or should i say contained germany in wwI, if that had been enough we would not have had wwII. jimmy you might have been a history teacher but you didn’t learn the most important lesson; that history repeats itself and the only way to stop a bully is to kick his *** hard, fast and last or there will never be peace on the playground! America is the HERO in this story not the villian. p.s. Roy, if the canadian truckers don’t want to wait 8 hours in line at the border to bring us their goods then tell them to drive to china. :roll:

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I think one thought which has been lost is why do they hate us if we are so good and rightous.
We have done thing that makes us less likely to be attacked by other countries which is let all the other lands invest in U>S business and property.
Other countries own so much of our property already that they would be attacking them selves.

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I think you can not get any better control then both countries have at this time .
Throwing more money at it will not improve it .
We can not protect our selves from idiots or terrorists or religious fanatics with tightening up our borders.
We are playing into their hands and just tending to bankrupt our selves.
We must use other methods and if it is destruction then so be it.
That is exactly what they are doing.

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And how well do you think our two countries would do with out trading with each other.
We need to support each other with trading .
I wonder do you have any idea who your biggest trading partner is by far?

You can be sure China would love us to stop sending our products to you and send it to China instead.
Their arms are wide open… Cookie

27

I’ll tell you why they hate us. They hate us because …

we have what they don’t have.

we have rights and freedoms that are a threat to the control and power they wish to exert over others.

we stand up for the rights of the masses, and those they would wish to control.

we know the difference between right and wrong and aren’t afraid to stand up for what is right.

we speak up against the wrongs that they and their leaders commit.

we haven’t been consistent in sending that message, or the implementation of that uniformly across the planet.

we recognize them for the bullies they are, and stand up to them.

we stand strong and support our allies, and in particular the Jewish race and nation of Israel.

we believe in a Loving God.

In a nutshell they hate us because we are who we are.
These nut cases have recognized the fact that if they want to control the world, they are going to have to go through us, and defeat us first. And they are going to use EVERY means possible for them to do that, legal & illegal, moral and immoral, ethical and unethical. That leaves us with only one alternative, and that does not involve staying out of the politics of the Middle East or trying to appease them, but instead means the complete and** TOTAL DESTRUCTION** of THOSE WHO WOULD DESTROY OR ENSLAVE US IF THEY COULD.

If someone is stealing your property, it’s not the time to negotiate with the thief, it’s time to kill him.

If someone is raping your daughter, it’s not the time to reason with the rapist, it’s time to kill him.

If someone is killing your loved ones, it’s not the time to talk to them about how wrong it is to murder, it’s time to kill him.

If someone highjacks planes and uses them as weapons against innocent people from all over the world, it’s not the time to ask what did we do to deserve it, it’s time to kill them.

If someone has stated a goal to destroy your way of life, and to take over not only your country but the entire world, it’s not the time to “mind your own business.” It’s time to kill them.

Now some may argue that this is too harsh, and too black & white. To those people, I say tough. Get over it, and get a spine. Because if those of you who feel that way don’t open their eyes to the reality of the enemy we are at war with, you and I are going to be living in a society where our daughters aren’t allowed to go to school, and our wives won’t be allowed to leave the house without a burka.

All these other issues that people bring up are just side issues and a distraction. It’s not about oil. It’s not about something we did. It’s not about us putting our noses where they don’t belong. It’s not about George W, trying to finish a job his Dad didn’t. It’s not about any of these things the cut-n-runners throw out there. It’s about freedom. Freedom for us, and freedom for the world. And when freedom is suppressed anywhere, then it affect US. We don’t live in a vacuum.

I believe it was Patrick Henry who said “Give me Liberty, or Give me Death.” For me… I’m with Patrick. I would rather die, than give up my liberties. And yes, I’d also be proud to see my Sons stand up for that liberty as well. Whether that’s here in the U.S. or in Afghanistan, or Iraq, or anywhere else in the world.

I think I’ve said enough.

Mark

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Kenneth,

Please be more specific as I am not sure what you are trying to infer with this metaphor.

The only concern that our government should be dealing with are the 50 United States, US posessions (not private posessions but those belonging to the US governmental system), US Governmental offices and military bases overseas, along with their personnel.

Private business’ are the concern of those companies as well as the people who choose to relocate to foreign soil to work there. They receive significant tax breaks from the US Government to operate on foreign soil. Let them use some of that gained money to secure themselves. It is my opinion that I certainly have no interest in using my income tax dollars to pay for the security of another or a business on foreign soil that is not even paying US taxes or paying significantly less than they should.

Sounds tough but how much of those tax dollars that are not collected could be used to pay US Government costs for the protections they now receive from the US Government?

Do you advocate protecting the likes of Exxon and its foreign operations using your and my taxpayers dollars? Do you advocate protecting the getaway estates of US multi-millionares and billionares that are on foreign soils? If you protect one private company or private group of individuals you have to protect them all?

My opinion but I seriously doubt that. The US Dollar is being devalued all over the world because the US has lost its economic might. We are a foreign goods consuming nation that produces very little of its own products because we make very little. If our economy fails tomorrow the foreign manufacturers will just ship their goods to the next “up and coming” country.

Don’t you think you should ask that of the families of the soldiers who gave their lives in Iraq and Afghanistan??

In my opinion the answer is a resounding NO!! I do not feel that the oil we obtain from overseas was worth the life of even one of those Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen or Marines!!! The looming oil crisis has been well known for a lot longer than even you have been around! Yet little to nothing has ever been done to prevent this world from becoming so dependent on it. In fact, just the opposite as can be shown in oil company profits.

Which “way of life” are you referring to? Please provide more description to that so I may answer it.

Please explain how “the enemy” can “kill us at will” if our government properly performs its job of providing the securities I have discussed before? As for the cost you use the word cheap but cheap is a relative word and you have provided nothing specifically to relate it to.

Have you forgotten them? Go back and research them a little more, at least as far as the ones that occurred on/to US soils, US governmental facilities and employees (that does include the military by the way). Each had a common thread and that was the failure of our government to provide adequate protection measures. As stated above the remainder are the concern of those who chose to leave the US governmentally protected areas.

I do not assume who anyone is by initials alone. Please spell it out.

As I have said before, once this government has taken care of its own people satisfactorily I have no qualms with helping other peoples in other countries.

Any solutions proposed here are with very little discussion as to the reasoning behind them. If you would like to debate these more in depth I would certainly welcome that.

I think you have gone a little over the deep end advocating the decimation of innocent civilians. This does not occur in a society not at war, whether internally or externally. Besides it has been said many times that “Wars are fought for political ends (reasons)”. It seems to me that the same people that tout “In God We Trust” many times forget the saying that “violence begets violence”.

“we need”, “we need”, “we need”???

What we need is for the US Government to secure its own soil then we have little worry of being attacked. What we need is the US Government to quit destroying programs to help the elderly, infermed and truly incapable instead of relegating them to rat infested nursing homes, facilities and providing substandard care to some of the very people who did fight against a true menace, Adolf Hitler!! What the US citizens need is a responsible government whose members are willing to do their job instead of trying to fill the pork barrel to fatten their own futures.

God help the world if we ever do as God is the only one that will be able to help then!!

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emmanuel have you ever read the koran? i have. if you say no then go read the koran and get back to me and i will talk to you about it.

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Wrong? Why would anyone wanting to cross from Canada into the US with some sort of attack related equipment or articles take the chance to cross at a border crossing, manned or unmanned? That would be stupid. Why not just put it on a boat anywhere above Lake Roosevelt in Canada and boat it, undisturbed, all the way to the Grand Coulee Dam? With dozens and dozens of unmonitored boat ramps all the way. This is the same in numerous large lakes and rivers that cross between the two countries, not to mention the back roads that cross the border from sea to sea without a Mountie or Border Patrol anywhere around.

Do you really think that with the planning that took place for the 9/11 attacks, any terrorist group would not spend a little time doing some research on how to cross the border? Like they really need CNN.

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Hell I would probably just hide my device in a couple of tons of cocaine. :twisted:

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Have you ever heard of a dirty bomb? Suitcase? Cell? Candybar?

No, we don’t have much to fear from boats, tanks, etc. It’s the one or two single people walking through unmonitored areas just like that one that CNN gave away (and yes, we don’t need the locations disclosed, maybe they don’t know all of them. Why take chances?) and setting off a dirty bomb that could take out a football stadium or larger chunk out of a city and contaminate an even larger area with radiation.

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Have you ever heard of a dirty bomb? Suitcase? Cell? Candybar?

No, we don’t have much to fear from boats, tanks, etc. It’s the one or two single people walking through unmonitored areas just like that one that CNN gave away (and yes, we don’t need the locations disclosed, maybe they don’t know all of them. Why take chances?) and setting off a dirty bomb that could take out a football stadium or larger chunk out of a city and contaminate an even larger area with radiation.

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Right on Stan, I don’t understand those that think that travel between countries must happen on a highway. Certainly we should tighten up border security. But like in all our attempts to secure our home, cities, etc, they are basically designed to keep honest people honest. Generally I quess those who would attempt such alternative schemes would think a little outside of the box. Why does that surprize some?

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Sure there are hundreds of ways to get in the country undetected, but why make it easy for them, we cannot expect uncle sam to do it all, it is a group effort. We are uncle sam, we need to watch the boat ramps, shipping containers, dirt roads, game trials, airstrips and anything else that can be thought of. If we wait for another 911 to figure out how we can be hit, it will be too late again. Border control is defense, the war is offense, it takes both to win and remain safe. Do your part people, do your part!

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Our both countries have only so much money , What would you like discontinued from spending to spend more on some thing else .
The well is only so deep.

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**COST to build a 700 mi. border fence less than you might think.

Source

****Q: How much would extending the fence cost? **
There’s no official government estimate of how much it would cost to build a 700-mile-long border fence. Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-CA), the main backer of the fence plan, has been quoted as estimating the project would cost about $2.2 billion. That’s roughly $3 million per mile. But Sean Garcia, an expert on fencing with the Latin American Working Group, says the costs are likely to be much higher. Garcia notes that Hunter severely underestimated the cost of the San Diego fence, which is the model for the larger fence. Hunter said the San Diego fence would cost $14 million, or about $1 million a mile. The first 11 miles of the fence actually cost $42 million, or $3.8 million per mile, Garcia says; the last 3.5 miles may cost several times that much because they cover more difficult terrain. And that’s just the cost for building materials. Labor, surveillance cameras, sensors, lighting and road construction are not included. Plus, there are the potential costs of fighting any lawsuits that may crop up, and of buying land from private landowners.
Q: Who are the main backers of plans to extend the border fence?
Members of the House Immigration Reform Caucus – roughly 90 members of Congress support the House proposal. An organization called “We Need Fences” also supports the 700-mile fence. In the Senate, the Judiciary Committee voted 12-6 to send its fence proposal to the floor. The 12 voting for the proposal included Republican John McCain (R-AZ) and Democrat Ted Kennedy (D-MA). The Border Patrol and Department of Homeland Security are asking for more fencing, as well as “virtual fencing,” to block both immigrants and potential terrorists.
Q: Who is opposing the plan? What’s the thrust of their criticisms?
Critics say security is a specious argument for building a border fence. They wonder why the same barriers aren’t being suggested for the Canadian border, where potential terrorists have actually been caught. They say barriers help curb illegal immigration only where they are put, because people find ways around them. Environmentalists also note that extending security infrastructure into the Arizona desert will imperil fragile ecosystems. The Buenos Aires National Wildlife Refuge and Organ Pipe Cactus National Monument have been damaged by both illegal immigrants and Border Patrol vehicles. Impenetrable fencing, critics say, also blocks migration paths for mountain lions, coyotes, deer and other wildlife. And American Indian tribes in the region worry that the fence will prevent their people from crossing the border as they have traditionally done.

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Then in Canada there is 4,000 ~ miles of land and another 2,000~ of water .
Sure will take a lot of man power and time to fix this … Cookie
Also please do not forget if the USA isolates its self from Canada how about all the oil and Natural Gas you get from us.
I think we both need each other big time.

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Canada d
oes not need a fence as it can be thought of as an extended border.
How well would another China wall work?
We can never be sucessful with that type of security.
Perhaps if we did not jump into Dick Chaney’s favorite place the world would have not turned against us.

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OH! I do not think the world has turned agains us it is just a few jealous religious fanatical associations.