And I think that was the OPs original question. I haven’t seen anything yet that says a CAFCI/ACFI doesn’t require any type of neutral connection.
Do all GFCI and AFCI breakers take a hot and neutral connection?
When I first read Jim’s post I took it to mean that he was referring to the load neutral (not connected to the CB) which he has confirmed to be correct. I could see it being read the other way too.
Remember, that most of us here are Home Inspectors, and NOT Electricians. Not only do we think differently, we also see and hear things differently. I often have to reread the posts made by Sparky’s, and often need to inquire about basic comments posted, just to be sure I get it right. Many times, as proven above with the Neutrals, miscommunication makes a mess of things.
Got it. Thought maybe you were showing something with the tester…
But there is no neutral connection to the branch circuit wiring.
From the OP.
The breaker would only take a branch circuit neutral. The pigtail is built in unless it was of the plug on design. The branch circuit neutral may not connect to the breaker depending on the design.
The pigtail serves the same function as the plug on connection, just an older style from before the introduction of plug on.
Jeffery, fair point. I used line and load neutral connection to distinguish which one im referring to. The load would be the branch circuit end, the line the plug-in neutral or pigtail end.
Terminology was not the problem here. Lack of specifics was. The original wording refuted by George Wills was simply:
To which George replied:
After which Milby got indignant:
A little proof reading goes along way. Don’t expect anyone to add words that you omit. There was no mention of “line” or “load” initially. If you don’t say exactly what you mean no one else will know.
Can you imagine doing your job and leaving out parts or assembly steps. That’s what is happening here.
Contrary to what Jim Milby said, ALL GFCI and AFCI breakers rely on a neutral connection. The problem is that Milby doesn’t understand how the breakers work. If he did understand, he would also understand that his comment “ALL brands don’t have a neutral connection (sic)” is wrong.
The neutral is needed for the breakers to work properly. AFCI breakers sense a non-sinusoidal waveform. GFCI breakers sense an imbalance between the grounded and ungrounded conductors. In order for the breakers to work properly, the neutral needs to be present.
An actual electrician would know the basic operation of a circuit breaker. It is worth noting that Jim Milby is neither a home inspector, nor an InterNACHI member. Based on all the misinformation he has posted here about electrical systems, he obviously is not a qualified electrician either. He may work somewhere where they have bestowed the title of electrician on him, but he lacks the knowledge that would be expected of a first-year apprentice electrician.
Are you saying that a “plug-on neutral” clamp on a CAFCI Siemens breaker counts as a neutral conductor since it clamps to a neutral bar?
Photographic proof was provided that not all gfi or afci breakers have a load neutral connection. Written documentation from the manufacturer was provided by Robert M.
An AFCI or GFCI circuit breaker requires a line side neutral connection for the test button to work so yes a line side neutral is required. In Jim’s circuit breaker example a load side neutral is not required.
Typically an older breaker would have a pigtail for the line side connection and the branch circuit neutral run with the ungrounded conductor would also connect to the circuit breaker.
Yes. It is a neutral conductor. Incidentally, plug-on neutrals are nothing new. They have been around for many decades in non-residential electrical systems. It is only in residential systems that they are relatively new.
Also, brand is irrelevant. AFCIs and GFCIs come in a variety of formats and configurations, but they are fundamentally identical in their operation. They all require a closed loop and a connection to the system’s grounded conductor.
You should be apologizing to the group for continually posting misinformation and for claiming to be an electrician.
Your statement about all AFCI/GFCI breakers not having a neutral connection is not only false. It is patently absurd.
I am not here to try to educate non-members. I am here to help members. Helping members includes exposing frauds who post misinformation. Whether you post misinformation out of malice or incompetence is not my concern. The fact that you are giving members false information should be a concern to everyone here.