Electric Junction Boxes

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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I come accross this situation quite frequently in older homes and I would caution inspectors to “watch” for it.


I inspect homes with electric junction boxes in the basement in which the wire and the breaker leading into the panel are the correct size.

You should be on the look out for the correct wire sizes coming out of those junction boxes. For example, when you have a 12 gauge wire and 20 amp breaker that services a junction box you should check to ensure all the wires leading from the junction box are also 12 gauge wire. You should remember that the breaker should be sized according to the smallest size wire on the circuit.


--
Joe Myers
A & N Inspections, Inc.
http://anii.biz

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Of course everyone already knew that. Did’nt you? :stuck_out_tongue:



Joe Myers


A & N Inspections, Inc.


http://anii.biz

Originally Posted By: Ben Gromicko
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Joe, you appear to be responding to your own questions, and talking to yourself on the NACHI message board.


Are you feeling okay?


:wink:



Benjamin John Gromicko


Vice-President,


PEACH Inspections


NACHI & ASHI Member

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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What the He**, if nobody is going to talk to me I will just have to do it myself.


Joe Myers


--
Joe Myers
A & N Inspections, Inc.
http://anii.biz

Originally Posted By: Daniel Keogh
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Joe, I’ll take to you.


Although I may denie it latter.


Heres my queston for you. What's the differance between a service disconnect ( like for a water heater or a pool pump), and a sub panel? and do the bus bars in the disconect box need to be seperated like they do in the sub panel? And why do the bus bars need to be seperated in the subpanel?


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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Neutral and grounds shouldn’t share a common bus bar at sub-panels for the same reason they shouldn’t bond at typical electrical receptacles (spellling???). Neutrals aren’t grounds in that they carry current back. Nick P.S. Anyone know how to spell recepticle, receptical, receptacle ???



Nick Gromicko


Founder


dues=79cents/day.


I much prefer email to private messages.

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Service disconnects are required within sight of the appliance as a means to completely de-energize. Sub panels on the other hand can service several other circuits and are not required. Usually it is because they are far away from the main service panel, such as a seperate building, or they just ran out of room in the main panel.


As for question 2 and 3, ungrounded conductors are required to be seperated. As you know with the NEC codes there are exceptions to the rule or with the NEC codes a lot of exceptions. :)

I believe what you are getting at is called a "ground loop" which has several reasons why you do not want this to happen. It would take the breaker or fuse too long to cut the power to the circuit causing electrical shock, fire or other hazards.

You really should brush up on your electrical knowledge, my kids know this stuff! :P

Joe


--
Joe Myers
A & N Inspections, Inc.
http://anii.biz

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Ground loops is a term most widely used/referred-to in the computer or data center environment.


To Joe M's point, the notion of providing an isolated neutral back to the service entrance panel helps ensure a true "single-point ground". In most computing equipment applications, it is a manufacturer's requirement. It helps eliminate loops, and is a safety consideration.

Ground loops can be nasty things, providing an unclear path. Receptacles designed for use in an IG engironment are orange in color, and are marked with a black triangle on the face. The mechanics of the receptacle provides no bond between the metallic mounting hardware attached to the receptacle face and the ground lug. The receptacle mechanically and electrically bonds to the metallic box and to the safety ground within the cable or as part of the cable sheathing (BX). A separate insulated conductor is contained within the wire and returns to an isolated bus bar within the serving panel. Isolating transformers are utilized in commercial applications, and the neutral is separate all the way back to the switchgear.

This scenario is a bit different than what we see in a typical residence, in that normal receptacles provide mechanical and electrical bonds between the cable ground, the ground lug, and the receptacle frce and housing. Even the screw hole for mounting the faceplate is part of the grounding system.

Again, isolated grounds are foreign to most residential applications. Isolated neutrals within a subpanel are a code requirement, unless powered from a dedicated transformer. In that case the panel is considered to be like a main panel. Joe M mentioned the "ground loop" and I thought I'd jump in, seeing as how I've designed the electrical distribution for about 250 data centers around the US and Canada.

BUt back to the point (what was the point anyway?!). Oh, yeah... Joe M is correct in his assessment of what havoc a true ground loop can cause. Remember, though, that circuit breakers trip for one reason and one reason only: HEAT. It cant detect a short, ground loop, over current, or anything else. Any electrical malfunction can cause some sort of breaker overload, causind a rapid and sometimes severe jump in the generation of heat within the breaker. This is what causes it to trip. The exceptions to this rule pertain to GFI and arc-fault breakers, which are now required on bedroom circuits in new construction. Gosh, what a long answer to a question that no one really asked... Nevermind...


Joe


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Joe,


Is this a new NEC code? State Code? Local Code? In this supposed to be on all bedroom circuits?

I for one have the 1993 NEC code book, maybe I should think about updating it to get the latest changes! :(

Joe Myers


--
Joe Myers
A & N Inspections, Inc.
http://anii.biz

Originally Posted By: Richard Stanley
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It is AFCI that is required in all bedroom circuits efective 1/1/2002, but check with your local AHJ. Some not addopted.


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Ok, I give! What is AHJ?


Anyway, welcome Joe F. It is great to have a real electrician on board.

Did you ever get to practice or only get to design?

I personally have gotten the practical experience of getting shocked on numerous occasions!! :)

The great part of this is, it was my own electrical panel that did the shocking. You would think the electrician that upgraded it before we moved in would have found the short and corrected it. Its not like he did not know, when I touched the screwdriver to the neutral bar the sparks went a flying :)~~

Oh well, enough of my stupidity. Any one out there done anything dumber than me?

Joe Myers


--
Joe Myers
A & N Inspections, Inc.
http://anii.biz

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Joe,


I'm not an electrician by trade, per se, but my responsibilities included the design of power and distribution for many data centers. Mostly design and QA. Lots of fault-tolerant designs. Occasionally, I would get to do "work", though mainly from a supervisory standpoint. Remind me to tell you about the GIANT cockroaches we used to find in the communications and alectrical panels in Macy's Newark, sometime. They were so big you could hear them "clicking" when they hid behind the wires!

Privately, I have done LOTS of work. I've been fascinated by electricity since I was a kid. One of my heroes is Nickolai Tesla. The guy invented a true "death ray", no kidding...

He could direct man-made lightning anywhere he wanted, from towers he built.

But to your point, just like the shoemaker who's children have broken shoes, we all take shortcuts or make stupid moves from time to time. I was taking down two interior walls in my sister's house a couple of months ago. One wall was loaded with electrical wiring. I re-routed all of the circuits, but many were un-marked, with no way to trace them. While re-connecting wires running to and from everywhere, I was on my last receptacle, bridging it onto what I believed to be a dead wire, waiting to be energized. Of course, power was on. I never turn off the breaker. It wouldnt be macho for me to do that!

Anyway, I made the connection and WHAM!!! We were welding!!. Yup, I crossed two hots, one from each side of the panel. A 15 amper and a 20 amper. Whoa!! Well, after receptacle stopped burning, and I washed the soot off of my left hand, I fugured out what I had done wrong... Talk about continuing education credits!!!

I dont normally do things that stupid, but after no mishaps in nearly 20-years, I was due one... :cool:


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: rwills
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Joe, Authority Having Jurisdiction (AHJ).



Bob Wills - MAB Chairman


BW Inspection Services


Warminster, Pa.


http://www.bwinspections.com

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Hey thanks Bob, I was feeling kinda dumb.


No it is not pertinent that I am, da** it!! (just kidding)

Joe Myers


--
Joe Myers
A & N Inspections, Inc.
http://anii.biz

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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One day I was placing a 220 volt heater in my basement and WHAM!! I started welding the wires to the terminal. Talk about turning different shades of red. Some red from welding and some from the stupidity of living through such stupidity!! God really loves me :slight_smile:


Joe Myers


--
Joe Myers
A & N Inspections, Inc.
http://anii.biz

Originally Posted By: Daniel Keogh
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Ok guys back to the sub panel. I understand teh functional differance between a sub panel and a service disconnect, but what I am trying to under stand is …Does a service disconnect have to have the ground and the nuetral waires seperated, and if not at what point does a service disconnect become a sub panel. I recently inspected a house and there was a panel that was for te pool and pool lights. Is this a service disconnect or a sub panel.


Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Technically, it’s a service disconnect for the pool and related appliances, although it also contains breakers like a subpanel. Disconnects for near pools have specific grounding requirements. The NEC is quite specific about them, as they are a sure source for fry-time if not grounded/bonded correctly. I need to go back to the book to give you the answer, unless Jack has it off the top of his head…


Joe F


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Dan I am pretty sure in order for this to be considered a service disconnect it has to be in sight of the appliances, otherwise it would be considered a sub panel. About 95% on that one.


Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: John Davco Jr.
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Daniel K,


Article 680 and 250 of the NEC covers pools and grounding. All pool circuits should have G.F.C.I. breakers for protection. Equipment ground is also run out to pool for grounding. The primary purpose is to ensure that gradients in the pool area are eliminated.This ground is not for fault current but for voltage gradients.The electrical ground with the feed wires is used for breaker faults or grounded conductors returm path to panel.
Sub panels have the neutral and grounds separate and no bonding screw in the neutral bus.
Grounding can be divided into two areas: system grounding and equipment grounding. These two systems are kept separate.(250.118)


Jack


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Jack,


Is that "should have" or "must have" GFCI breakers for protection?

Does this include the pool pump circuit?

Joe Myers