I just recently purchased a new home, since arriving i’ve discovered 2 major issues and wanted to know if it was against code what was done?
The house was completely flipped and a fixed island was placed in the kitchen,(the island did not exist originaly) within the island is a spot for the microwave with a new plug at the back and, they then split off from that plug to feed the electrical for the dishwasher. I can’t run both at the same time without jumping the breaker. Is there a code in the handbook that prevents this type of instalation? I read somewhere that 26-710 or 26-720 might apply but I can’t find the actual code or confirm they still exist in the manuel.
Also the oven wire was replaced and a 40amp setup was put in place, my oven sayes it requires 50 amps…is this also not up to code?
And one last question, since multiple breakers where added and rewiring done, legaly should the entire job have been inspected by an electrician before closing the walls?? assuming of course an electrician didn’t do the initial work.
It would help if you indicated where you are located as different rules may apply in different areas.
Nevertheless, if it sounds “dodgy” to you, please get in contact with a licensed electrician for further investigation. There are a few electricians on the message board - Retired and active, which can probably chime in but this is best left to a Professional on site. There will be a cost attached.
You should also get in contact with your Real Estate “Legal Eagle” to get some advice on this situation and your next steps.
Thank you for your reply, I`m located in Ile Perrot…near Montreal, Quebec.
Ive already started the procedures for hidden defects with the buyer for other issues with the house (dryer vent that connects to basement bathroom fan vent before going outside, causes my dryer to shutdown due to air flow issues) and so im compiling a list, before calling a certified electrician im required to allow the seller to bring in his own expertise otherwise it will be on my dime and not his. Trying to avoid fees to find out its stupid but not illegal.
Joel,
First I’m assuming you are in Canada, as you have posted in the Canadian Section.
Next, I’m again assuming that these are questions that have arisen because of a concern about home Inspections (hence posting them on a home Inspectors site)
So… if my assumptions are correct, the first thing you need to know is that a Home Inspection is not a code inspection.
That said, if the home was completely “flipped” as you say, the first place you should look is to the local jurisdiction to see if the building department has issued any permits recently.
If they haven’t, this would set some alarm bells ringing.
Next onto your Electrical specifics.
You mention codes 26-710 and 26-720. These are actually rules. The first deals with receptacles for all residential occupancies, and the second deals with arc-fault circuit interruption. and yes they are both still in the safety code.
As for the island receptacle, this is covered by Bulletin 26-23-3 Receptacle requirements in kitchens of dwelling units.
This is rule 26-712(d). Here it say “Rule 26-712(d)(iv) and (v) requires at least one receptacle (5-15R split or 5-20R) to be installed at each peninsular or permanently fixed- island counter space with a continuous long dimension of 600 mm or greater and a short dimension of 300 mm or greater. A continues dimension, referenced in Rule 26-712(d)(iv) and (v), excludes a sink, counter stove top, or other built-in equipment, as per Diagram B1.The requirements for continuous space in Rule 26-712(d)(iv) and (v) is similar to Rule 26-712(d)(iii) requirements, that the wall space behind a sink, counter stove top, other built-in equipment or isolated counter work sections less than 300 mm long, is not required to be provided with a receptacle outlet.”
As for the dishwasher, this should be installed according to the manufacturers’ installation requirements and not in contravention of the Ontario Building Code or Ontario Electrical Safety Code.
Most dishwasher manufacturers recommend (but not demand) a dedicated circuit. The Building code states that a dishwasher shouldn’t share a circuit with kitchen counter-top, dining room, pantry, bathroom or laundry receptacles circuits.
The safety codes say all electrical circuits in the Kitchen should be on split circuits (depending upon the use) and GFCI/AFCI protected.
Only an electrician has the ability to legally determine if wiring has been installed according “to code”. Home inspectors may be able to test an individual receptacle or two, but diagnostics of a complete circuit would require a licensed electrician.
Any circuit should be wired and protected against overload and capable of taking 80% of the maximum load of the circuit constantly without tripping a breaker. Dishwashers typically draw between 1200 and 2400 Watts. That’s between 10 and 20 amps at 120v.
A microwave draws between 600 and 1700Watts. That’s between 5 and 15 Watts.
If you have a top of the range Dishwasher and a top of the Range Microwave on the same circuit these will draw 4100Watts which is 35 AMPs.
A 20AMP breaker might try to go into orbit at that load.
If this is the case, it is likely that both the Microwave and Dishwasher manufacturers’ recommendations are that they are wired on their own dedicated circuits.
Onto your final question. According to the ESA and who you talk to there, “no-one but a licensed electrician” or “only the home owner or a licensed electrician” is allowed to go into a panel.
A home owner can only alter circuits up to 15amps. Any additions to the wiring MUST have a permit and MUST be signed off by an ESA inspector (and currently a master electrical contractor who can sign off their own work - watch this space on that one )
At the end of the day it all comes back to permits. If there are none on the home, then it is likely that the work was not done in accordance with professional standards.
The home owner can find this out, as can the Realtor who is listing the property. Some jurisdictions allow inspector some of the information while others hide (incorrectly) behind the privacy act.
Thank you very much Leonard, your post was very insightfull, I’m going to start by contacting the city to start with about permits and go from there. You say that 26-710 and 26-720 are rules…does that mean it’s optional or it’s still something that would usually be required?
What building and electrical code is enforced in Quebec? Are there any specific regulatory statutes apply to “building and construction”? These are all starting points to assure that the renovations or alterations meet recognized construction standards.
The “rules” are regulatory requirements from the “electrical code”. In most all of Canada, the national standard is NBC - National Building Code and/or the National Electrical Code. Provincial code variations are typically derivatives of the “national codes”.
First off Joel, home inspectors do not do code inspections.
Questions: 1: Why did you purchase a flip? 2: What did the inspector point out in the report.
As for the island’s electrical. How did you ascertain that circuit’s receptacles?
Certain Appliances require a dedicated circuit.
The gauge of the circuit, the thickness of the conductor, indicates what the MAXAMUM OCD can terminate at that conductor.
Refer to the post above…
No laws…
Home owners can do anything they wish to there unit.
That being said, many municipalities require a building permit.
My question, "Did you have the home inspected by a seasoned inspector?
To answer Robert, i bought a flip because i liked it and the price was right…not sure why that’s an issue? For the island…when i run both the microwave and the dishwasher it jumps the breaker…but everything else works fine so i deduced that only those 2 things where on the circuit. And yes i had the building inspected, nothing relating to any of the problems was detected. But some stuff he superbly checked turned out to be problems as well…like a unusable due to bad caulking and bad installation of the shower.
I have spoken to the seller and he has offered to come and fix the issues at his expense…acknowledged the island wiring was some bad advice from an electrician friend that he won’t be refering to in the future.
Gilles, Electrical engineers cover, Energy Systems, Power Engineering. Microelectronics. Systems and Control. Signal Processing. Multimedia Processing. Telecommunications. Photonics.
What is the directors field please?
The questions Joel is asking as rudimentary or common.
As well, Joel does not understand what home inspectors are required to inspect.
Although home inspector typically/usually avoids dismounting the dead front of a panel, be it the main or sub/remote panel, as you warned me from doing and I still do remove, home inspectors only have to test one receptacle per room, and do not have to test oven and dryer 120/240 receptacles or continuity, although many seasoned home inspectors and CMI’s like myself do. Its fun chasing down defects and deficiencies. I call it a treasure hunt!
What type of electrical engineer is the director?
My father was an electrical engineer. He dealt in civic and ending with industrial projects. 3 phase high voltage.
Roy Cooke was a Industrial electrician. Worked in civic settings.
I think it would be great to post any information on the InterNACHI MB.
Also Robert young. Just so that we are clear. I do understand what a inspector is supposed to check and I’m not under the impression that he should have discovered most of my electrical issues. ( althought not noticing that there was a dryer plug In the kitchen instead of an oven plug was definitely not reassuring) but i did expect that there was more knowledge behind the training. I don’t mean any disrespect to anybody here and many of you have been incredibly helpful.
I didn’t expect that these things would be noticeable during inspection. But i did believe that once found post inspection…he would be able to help too determine what was normal and what wasn’t. Hence why i asked a group of building inspector. I hope that helps explain my “rudimentary question”.
The NEMA configuration for a 30 amp (dryer) receptacle will have the “L” shape slot.
Conductor Gauge and OCD can determine what is required for what appliance…
You have not disrespected any one.
Your many questions are being answered.
I would expect many of them to be answered.
No a rudimentary question to a home owner. To an inspector, in my opinion, yes.
Its fun chasing down defects and deficiencies. I call it a treasure hunt!