Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Ok who did we harm Mike and how?
If we harmed anyone...was it a life threatening kind of harm?
Who voted Mike in as the HI (Harm Inspector)...how come I didn't get a chance to vote too?
All I did was post my opinion on the information that was given to me and the next thing I know I have someone telling me how I am not a good sparky because I assumed something from the info I was given. If anyone was harmed here it was me....when I was told I was a bad sparky and most probably the state of Ohio was harmed too cuz they are the ones that gave me my license, which I have held for the last 8 years!!!!!!
-- This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.
Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Joe and Joe…
you two have more silly than is allowed!!  
-- This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.
Originally Posted By: dvalley This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
May I ask what are your qualifications?
110.26(A)(2) is your reference. What about 110.26(A)?
Do not mislead those who are tring to learn or tring to be compentent.
Your info is not correct.
We are all human here and do make mistakes, but for Christs sake... lets tone down on the attitude. You could have approached Dennis' answer in a more viable manner. We are all here to learn and take advice from each other. This is not a boxing ring. Degrading and humiliating others only causes problems and broadens the issue at hand.
It would be more suitable if you stated your comments and corrections more tactfully. Please do not put people down. There have been times where I've received six totally different replies for a specific question. I didn't go back and tell certain people that they were misleading the community.
Dennis has taught me quite a bit since I've become a member here. He will continue to give his feedback and honest opinions to this forum. But next time he'll have the book open.
Lets all work together here as a team.
Thank you for your research regarding the water main and Se panel.
Joe M,
I also want what you are taking. Whatever it is...save one for me.
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
If anything, Dennis was being more conservative than the minimum code requirement (that’s pretty typical for him if you read his posts), and he did state it was unconfirmed.
Note the term "MINIMUM" in that statement about the codes. The codes are not intended to cover every possible issue or hazard (it actually states something to that effect in the codes), or we would be living in concrete bunkers with #1 branch circuit wiring attached to explosion proof outlets and switches.
I think this is a case where a potentially problematic installation just doesn't appear to be addressed by the electric code (plumbing code?).
Good call Dave, although I wouldn't have red flagged that.
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Sometimes a good dose of common sense supesedes the codes. IMHO, this is one of them. This is one case where someone that is having a bad day, could die. Maybe you would like to explain it to his wife and children, their daddy is dead because you could not find anything wrong with this installation, code wise!
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
ditto Joe … but try to at least back it up with something concrete.
I remember reading another post here about someone who got killed when they jumped up on a garage refrig that had an electric fault which didn't get cleared by a breaker (was that you Joe?). Probably because it was not grounded or plugged into a GFCI and there was something metal that was bonded/grounded like a conduit, box, or pipe on the wall that they touched ... ZAP ... 
Seems like a sweating water main, which is usually the primary ground point in a house, is the last thing you want right next to a service panel ... the heart of a homes electrical system. I will have to look into this a little more if I get the time, because something just really rubs me the wrong way about that.
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
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NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
The code states that the panel must be protected from damage. A water pipe that is near or over the panel can potentially cause damage to the panel such as if the pipe does start to sweat, or if there are joints that could open up thus causing water to spray on the panel. Gas lines ae usually not a concern but water pipes are seeing that electrons and h2o mix rather well.
I will admit that I blew this one  I knew there had to be some article on it but just couldn't find it. So I basically used my knowledge in the electrical field to respond and as I am sure you read...advice from a fellow sparky...who turned out to be wrong as well  
I have sinced wired the fellow sparky to a 4160 circuit. He now needs rogaine, viagra, geritol and is presently seeking other drugs, for the shock he recieved has put him to the Z in alzhiemers.
I reckon he won't give me false info in the future 
-- This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dennis … does your friend feel like a frog in high school biology class about now … see what happens when ya dont check things out.
I do hazardous confined space inspections sometimes in my trade, and you are always told to have someone you trust check your gear and hook you up to the safety line. My reply is always the same ... "that would be me" ... 
Actually, 2002 NEC 312.2 would require a weatherproof panel enclosure for a damp location ... but that may be a bit of a stretch. Plus that is not what is really rubbing me the wrong way.
P.S. How about we all chip in to buy Dennis another copy of "Pocket Guide to the National Electric Code" to tape to the side of his computer so it is always handy. I'm not giving up mine ...
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
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NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I can use a copy of that even though I never look at it…well almost never. Guess when you do things repeatedly as I do…it just becomes second nature. Actually the sparky I lit up is fine…turns out the disconnect was off for the 4160 volts. Bout the only time I look at a code book anymore is when I am doing something I either have never done or I need to get some sleep. Otherwise, it sits on top of my dashboard and fades in the sun.
But then I do have to maintain that 30 hours of code, 5 hours of business and 3 hours of health and safety to maintain my license. It's all a gimmick though and just Ohio's way of getting my money. The only good thing about a licensed journeyman these days is you can sue him if your house burns down. Life is so much nicer when you don't have to worry about such things.
I actually do carry a pocket reference guide called "Ugly's". It has all the neat formulas, ampacities, conduit fill, transformer data, etc. It's tucked away neatly behind the wire markers in my tool pouch. It doesn't collect much dust there either because it is used periodically. But an old salt like me rarely needs to check it for I know how things should be done. Most of what you read in the code is common sense anyway, that is after you decipher the lawyer jargon it tends to be written in. With the 30 hours of code I get, I manage to get al the newest changes too. So although I may not be able to cite specific articles, I can pretty much answer most stuff without the need for reference material. 
-- This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I actually really like the “Pocket Guide to the National Electric Code” by Fischer. About as thick as a pack of smokes, and it really fits in a shirt pocket too.
As a non-electrical professional it's real handy because it has plain language short descriptions/explanations of the requirements for most of the common electrical stuff. Plus it also has all the NEC tables, examples, diagrams, etc. Real easy to find stuff, and then go to the NEC code book if needed (which is written in "legally defensible" mumbo jumbo terms sometimes).
I posted the issue of the water main next to a service panel on a codes board I am registered with and I will see what flushes out ... 
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
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NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: dvalley This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dennis and Robert,
Sounds like I found a situation that needs attention, huh? Maybe a new code will develop out of this. I had already told my client to get an evaluation from the licensed electrician that will be correcting unrelated electrical issues within the house.
This situation is rare. I viewed this as a potential hazard because water was dripping from the main shut-off, into a bucket. I then pictured what would happen if this section of pipe had bursted and spewed onto the upgraded SE panel that was installed 1" away from the water pipe.
Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
RC…
I actually would like that book...where can I purchase it?
Dave....
Hate to burst your bubble here....interesting and true story coming. There was this pump house, built on the side of the main house. It was so small the mice were round shouldered, but it did have a panel in it. It was not a waterproof enclosure either. I had to enter this pump house to locate a circuit that had tripped off due to some landscape lighting that was defective. Inside this panel it was full of rust. The buss bar for the neutrals were all corroded and the enclosure itself was in bad shape. Right over head of the panel, the small make shift roof was leaking. It was a 40 amp service coming into the panel and it was a main lug panel as well. Had about a dozen or so circuits and no extras. Most of it ran the pumps for a pool and spa. What amazed me was the amount of water damage it had substained over the years...and just kept on pushin them amps. You could actually trace the water paths in, around and over the top of the panel. It was also full of spiders and webs. Never could understand what attracted bees and spiders to electricity and why none of them never fry. Anyway, the owner, (who was the ex-ceo of Home Depot), told me this panel was installed in the early 90's. That would have made it a good 10 plus years old. It was grounded and had all the right things done to it. So this just goes to show you...electricity is wierd stuff. I've seen really bad stuff working just fine and really nice stuff blowing up boxes and outlets. I guess it all comes down to how lucky you are. 
-- This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.
Originally Posted By: rking This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Mr. Meyers,
How did you get my line????
My two cents on this, hopefully helping instead of hindering 
I recently did an inspection that had a utility room chock full of wonderful things.
The main electrical panel, with aluminum wiring, a gas power vented water heater, main water supply and a pump to get the waste from the adjacent kitchen sink up to the drainage pipe all in a room approx. 3' x 6'!
the pump had marretted wires open to all and was not just resting on the floor.
Above the electrical panel was the supply and waste plumbing for the kitchen sink with trunk lines of copper going to the upstairs bathroom coming off of the kitchen supply and running directly over the electrical panel. The trunk lines were wrapped with pipe insulation and where they came into contact with the vent from the water heater they were melting.
The vent was not secured at all over it's length (PVC pipe is amazingly strong and durable ).
I advised my clients that the utility room was "busy" and that the close proximity of the electrical panel to all of the potential leaky pipes concerned me and that the pump was wired badly and needed securement and to arrange the vent a little better. I had also checked a number of receptacles and outlets and could not verify their compatibility with aluminum wiring so I also advised them to have an electrician check all of these arrangements.
While I was filling out my report, they brought in a licensed electrician.
He complimented me for my work and my advice. He agreed that the panel was poorly located, but technically there were no laws against it!
He also said that the panel should however be protected from mechanical damage and as such that "maybe" it should be moved or at the very least somehow protected against potential water leaks etc.
So in short, you guys really do know what you are doing
-- Muskoka Home Inspections
"Wisdom is the Anticipation of the Consequences"
Steering Committee Member At Large
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dave … I’m not sure if it’s really a huge issue, just something that rubs me the wrong way with the possible shock hazard. But then again, if a panel has a fault without adequate bonding/grounding (a huge red flag) then the whole area and anything connected is a hazard. Probably at least recommend the black pipe insulation be installed to keep it from sweating moisture on the panel. That would insulate the pipe somewhat too and maybe kill (save?) 2 birds with one stone …
R.K. ... Im surprised the electrician did not flag the water and waste lines above the panel as a safety issue as IRC E3305.3 and NEC 110.26(F) would not allow anything non-electric related in the space directly above a panel ...
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
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I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: tpfleiderer This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hello Gentlemen,
I believe that the article in the 2003 NEC that you have all been looking for is 110.34 (F), which states: Pipes or ducts foreign to the electrical installation and requiring periodic maintenance or whose malfunction would endanger the operation of the electrical system shall not be located in the vicinity of the service equipment, metal-enclosed power switchgear, or industrial control assemblies. Protection shall be provided where necessary to avoid damage from condensation leaks and breaks in such foreign systems. Piping and other facilities shall not be considered foreign if provided for fire protection of the electrical installation. 
Originally Posted By: tpfleiderer This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Sorry Joe,
I was reading from the beginning of this post because it had been a while sense I had been on the board 
I was back on Mike Parks, who had posted the following to Dennis on page one"Dennis... read section 110.26 a2 of the NEC.. Width of working space... it states a minimum of 30" total (not on each side) or a space equal to the width of the panel (if the panel is greater than 30") What your friend is saying might not be a bad idea but it is not what the NEC says...."
May I ask what are your qualifications?
110.26(A)(2) is your reference. What about 110.26(A)?
Do not mislead those who are tring to learn or tring to be compentent.
Your info is not correct."
After going back and reading what I had posted I was being just as bad and insulting, we are to all get along, so I did go back and edit those remarks out. I'll try and be good in the future and keep up and not fall behind again
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hey Tim
BINGO ... that NEC section is what was rubbing me the wrong way.
But keep in mind that 2002 NEC 110.34(F) is only a guide to the code intent as that section is actually in Part-III of Article-110 for panels over 600V. Section 110.26(F) applies to residential panels (under 600V) but only states a panel "shall be located in dedicated spaces and protected from damage". The "protected from damage" part is pretty vague.
For an existing install, I think that could be at solved with an insulating pipe wrap.
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Ok who did we harm Mike and how?
