Electrical Panel next to Water Main

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#1

Originally Posted By: dvalley
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I just came from a single family home inspection that had the electrical panel upgraded to 200 amps. This panel was installed in the basement one inch away from the water main running vertically alongside the panel. Can someone give me code clearences for water main piping next to main panels? I realize that there should be a clearence of 30" on the sides and 36" to the front but I am not sure how that reflects water mains. I advised my client to get a second opinion from a licensed electrician to determine if this is a safe practice.


Yes, Dennis. I’m sure you will be the first to reply. I’ll be waiting. icon_wink.gif

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David Valley


MAB Member


Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."
#2

Originally Posted By: jmcginnis
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David… I am going to try to beat Dennis to being first… icon_biggrin.gif The 30" clearance side to side is correct for panels 30" or smaller… after that the clearance has to be at least equal to the width of the panel…but in the case of a panel that is smaller than 30"… the clearance can all be to one side or the other of the panel… so the water main can be 1" away on the right with a 16" wide panel (for example) as long as you have a minimum of 13" on the left side of the panel… what do you think, Dennis? icon_biggrin.gif

#3

Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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icon_confused.gif Well…I had to check the code book on this one and have yet to come up with anything other than what I already know…You have to protect the electrical panel from damage. Therefore, if the water pipe is that close, I would have to write it up as being too close. If the pipe were to break or if there was a gate valve on it and that started to leak…could the panel be damaged? I typically warn customers of possible damage to a panel when water pipes are running too close overhead and often recommend that the panel is either relocated or the pipes must be moved. Other than what I stated I have yet to find anything about clearances for a panel from a water pipe. The 30 and 36 inches Jack is talking about is actually space needed to safely be able to work on the panel or to have access to it in case of an emergency. I do not believe those measurements would hold true for clearances in regards to water pipes…but then I guess anything is feasible. I’ll keep looking and see what I come up with.

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This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.

#4

Originally Posted By: dvalley
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Jack and Dennis,


The only reason why I located this situation was that there was a towel and a full bucket of water, placed almost directly under the panel. I looked further as to why these items were placed there. I then noticed that the shut-off valve on the water main was showing signs of past leakage and was rusting away at the handle and screw.
I then put two and two together, and was trying to picture what would happen if the handle started squirting water onto the electric panel. Ah-huh, Should this panel even be this close to this source. I would like a definative answer, please.

I do not take pics on my inspections, but I did draw a diagram of this situation.
http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/sebox1.jpg

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David Valley
MAB Member

Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."

#5

Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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Dave,


I have not found what I was looking for in reference to your question but I will say that the panel has to be protected from damage of any type. If the water main is that close....yes you should say something about it. Either recommend a plumber or a electrician. I will keep looking for clearances.

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This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.

#6

Originally Posted By: jmcginnis
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David…


The only reference to “foreign systems” (like this water pipe) is in 110.26 (F1b) of the NEC… and it refers to space only “above” the panel… but since there has been evidence of a leak… you can site 110.27 (B) which requires the installation of some kind of “guards” if physical damage is possible to a live panel… but really, like Dennis basically said… you, as an HI do not have to quote code on this or any situation like this… as an HI you have observed an “unsafe” condition and as an HI can call this out on your report and recommend the either a plumber or electrician be called in to decide how to fix the problem…

#7

Originally Posted By: dvalley
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Dennis & Jack,


Thank you both for your quick replies. As I stated in my original posting, I did report and state to my client to have a licensed electrician give them a second opinion on this new panel placement. I also noted that the water main shut-off has signs of leakage and to have a plumber correct this ASAP.
I would hate to see this leaky pipe burst and get into the electrical panel.
Then there wouldn't be a house to purchase.
So I will not be red flagging this placement on my future inspections until I get a definative answer. If someone can tell me that this particular installation is incorrect, I will then keep my eyes open for typical installations elsewhere.
Again, Thanks guys. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

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David Valley
MAB Member

Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."

#8

Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Hi Dave


the only time I have seen a problem of water pipes in proximity to an electrical panel was when a plumber ran a feed pipe for a lawn irrigation system above a panel, and the cold water rushing through the pipe produced condensation that dripped off the pipe onto the panel. needles to say I told the plumber that if he expected to be paid anytime soon he would need to re-route the pipe.


Regards

Gerry

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Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

#9

Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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Dave,


I spoke to a lectrician friend of mine and he seems to think that the water pipe should be 30 inches from either side of the panel.....yet still haven't found a code on it. As you know the space around a panel that should be clear is 36" in the front and 30" on both sides. Therefore, I have to agree with my friend....30" clearance on either side. If the water pipr is that close....it in violation.

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This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.

#10

Originally Posted By: jmcginnis
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Dennis… read section 110.26 a2 of the NEC… Width of working space… it states a minimum of 30" total (not on each side) or a space equal to the width of the panel (if the panel is greater than 30") What your friend is saying might not be a bad idea but it is not what the NEC says…

#11

Originally Posted By: kpapp
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David, Another source you can check is by calling your local building inspector. They will know for sure…Had to add my 1.5 cents Ken

#12

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Being the idiot that I am, I personally would never run a water pipe that close to electricity, either above or on the sides. I once cut a water pipe that was close to my own panel, never thinking that although I drained the lines there would still be water in the pipes. There was and it started spraying the panel. PLEASE PROTECT PEOPLE LIKE ME FROM MYSELF!!


Bob Vila and the big orange are making this world very unsafe.

Joe Myers

#13

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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“Dennis… read section 110.26 a2 of the NEC… Width of working space… it states a minimum of 30” total (not on each side) or a space equal to the width of the panel (if the panel is greater than 30") What your friend is saying might not be a bad idea but it is not what the NEC says…"


May I ask what are your qualifications?

110.26(A)(2) is your reference. What about 110.26(A)?

Do not mislead those who are tring to learn or tring to be compentent.

Your info is not correct.

MP

#14

Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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Gee thanx Mike for displaying such. I reckon my licensed status as an electrician in your state and my 30 plus years of experience is why you felt a need to tell me (and the Nachi world) that I was a dummy and over such a subject yet. It’s not like I told the guy to tie 12 guage wires to a 100 amp breaker!! If you read this entire thread you would have seen that I was trying to get the proper information and that all I did was relay what someone else had told me. Get your stories straight before you choose to slander me in the future Mike!!! I am here to help just like everyone else. I take pride in the fact that I can help and that I can state about experiences to make ALL HI’s safer in electrical inspections. I have been reading code books for over 30 years and in this case was unable to cite the code as you seem eager to do in each case. If anything, a licensed electricain would say…yes it does pose a problem but there are alternatives to relocating the panel or relocating the water pipe. One can even build a gutter around the pipe to prevent water from entering the panel area in the case of condesation buildup or actual pipe leakage!!


Thanx JM for you response and I did review that article and realize that my friend was in error as he cited it to me. I appreciate your info on this subject and I thank you for not talking to me like I was some sort of imbicil.

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This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.

#15

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Dennis does get a lot of crap from folks like me. And, while I do not agree with all he states, he is gracious enough to keep coming back for more abuse.


IMHO, Dennis is an experienced tradesperson who is looking to branch into another line of work. He is a purist, and only sees black and white, while HIs need to recognize grey, and even shades of grey.

Our jabs at Dennis help him to look at things a bit differently. Hopefully, this will prepare him for the challenges ahead. His knowledge and experience, on the other side, is teaching us some valuable things, and is providing some valuable information. I feel thet we are lucky to have him contribute, even if we butt heads on occasion.

If you believe Dennis is wrong, tell him, but be prepared to back it up. Some of his positions are merely opinions, which he is entitled to. Occasionally, as we are ALL guilty of, he's wrong. So what?

I'm the biggest ball buster around, and am grateful he takes the time to answer some real questions. Hang in there, Dennis. I'll be the one busting your balls next...

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Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

#16

Originally Posted By: jmcginnis
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Dennis,


It appears that Mike cut and pasted part of my reply to you in his post… then he wrote the rest of his opinion… so it appears to me that he is asking for my qualifications and telling me that I am incorrect… I have previously given him my qualifications and I re-checked the info I provided in the 2002 NEC and I stand by my post… Mike can you clarify what you were trying to say and also to whom you were referring? Also, Mike, it wouldn’t hurt to be a bit less terse in your comments… we’re all friends here… I think…

#17

Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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Well Joe…to me I have no problem with you or most busting my chops…for you and others do it with some class. The comment made to whoever here is not very classy and the tone surely seems like he was out to make someone look like a idjit!


JM...yea you might be right about this post, but this was the second post I seen from Mike whereas the first one was directed to me. So whoever he meant and why ever he meant it....I agree that he could have been a bit more nicer about it. There is no reason why anyone should jump on another in this manner. It even has gotten to a point in some cases where I am afraid to say anything with fear of having someone lurking in the shadows....waiting to pounce on my reply....to try and discredit my reply as being inaccurate or worse...trying to make me look like a idjit. I try very hard not to post stuff here that is inaccurate or false. I want to help not hinder as I am sure most do. To read negative coments like the one here though is truly sad. Not only does it upset me, it disrupts the forum and harms those that are here for their first or second time. Wish it didn't and wouldn't happen but then there is always that 10% that ruins it for the majority.

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This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.

#18

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Again I will “try” to say that I am an @$$.


I have, no excuses, been cleaning up where others have harmed people.

There is no reason for me to vent my frustrations here.

MP

#19

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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I’m an A$$, your an A$$, would’nt you like to be an A$$hole too! icon_lol.gif


I thought I was wrong once but I must have been mistaken!

HE HE HE!!

Joe Myers

#20

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joe,


You need stronger medicine these days... ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

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Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."