I have been using the same gfi tester for a couple years, and have never had any problems. I checked out a house today that had new GFCIs installed recently. The house was built in the 50s and has no ground wires. The electrician said the gfis were installed to protect computer equipment…(That is not what I thought gfis were meant for.) They were installed in the den and living room. My tester would not trip them. I would however trip the older ones in the bathrooms. The electrician told me that may tester wasn’t worth…and that they worked fine. Anyone heard of anything like this?
When I pointed out that the 20 amp breakers in the panel appeared to have 14 guage wire, the same inspector told me that I was wrong. I know sometimes that the guage is hard to tell from looking at the wire, but there happened to be what appeared as a 12 guage wire right below it to another 20 amp breaker. Placed side by side, it is easier to tell the size. He still said I was wrong and gave me his strippers to measure. I measured a ground wire on what I thought was 14g and was right. He then told me that the ground wires are always a size smaller thant the hot and neutral wires in the same romex sheath. Anyone have any input on that?
Lastly, he wired two hot legs (12g each and apparently to a ceiling fan) into one 20 amp breaker (an old FPE made for only one wire). When I pointed out a double-tap, he was adament that that was fine so long as they were servicing the same appliance…???
The electrician, and I use the title very loosely, is a dumb ***.
Some very old romex did have a smaller gauge grounding conductor, but all newer Romex has the same gauge wire for all the conductors. As far as the two wires to one lug, that is not allowed no matter where the wires end up. The lug is not designed for more than one wire, and why would anyone want to run two wire from one breaker to the same device?
plain and simple…14g on a 20 amp breaker is wrong.
double tap on a breaker is ok as long as it goes to the same appliance???..not buyin it…anyway, why would 2 hot conductors go to something using 120v?
the simple 3-prong testers wont trip a gfci outlet with an open ground.
open grounded GFCI’s will trip at their test button, but not when you use your tester.
IF that’s the tester you’re using.
proper grounding of an outlet is what protects electronics, not GFCI’s.
The simple tester creates a ground fault on the ground, so if no ground, now trip.
I picked up a simple $5 one from walmart, I go through a couple a year (butter fingers), and this one has an led on it to indicate that it is establishing a ground fault. So if no grounding, the LED wouldn’t have lit and it’s a second dumb-chit check for me. After a long day of course.
As for 14# on a 20a breaker, being an old house, I wonder if it was ok then. I mean, I ran into a house with the same issue, but the panel was installed in the 70’s. If paul can check in, I wonder when 14# use to be good for 20amps per code. Just in case, I would do what you say, comment everything, and defer to a qualified electrician on the panel.
14 AWG wire has never been ok on a 20a breaker. Some older Romex used a 14 AWG ground wire with 12 AWG hot and neutral wires. The only time it is ok to use a 14 AWG wire on a 20a breaker is in the case of motor loads such as an A/C unit.
The 14 on a 20 is just wrong, the temp on the line would exceed acceptable limits and in it of itself is a fire hazard, but since nobody has touched the dangers of the double tap… here has been my experience. The issue is the breakers are not designed for the double tap. It makes the same environment as aluminum wires. The clips, when 2 wires are in place, are not securing the wires tightly and they become loose. Loose wires leads to arcing and that creates the fire hazard. As a caveat to anybody who will report the issue as whistle blower, some panels in the market do allow for some double taps, but not all models. Square D for example does have some that were designed for double taps, so for some advice… call it out as possible defect and tell the client you will research it and put your findings in the final report. I have a database of most manufacturers and as I do my report it is placed in it. In addition, in my database I also report my findings so I don’t have to call all the time.
Steve, in the case of an A/C breaker. Some electricians have told me that there are some delay breakers, but I only thought it was for fuses. Is this true?
Check the nameplate. It will have all the information you need to wire the unit. If the nameplate specifies only fuses then fuses must be used as the OCPD (Overcurrent Protective Device), if however, it specifies either fuses or HCAR breaker then either may be used. For either the nameplate will list a minimum circuit ampacity (wire size) and a maximum fuse/breaker size. You can per the NEC wire for the minumum and breaker for the maximum. Therefore, on a unit that list a mimimum circuit ampacity of 12 amps and a maximum fuse/breaker of 20 amps use a #14 wire on a 20 amp breaker. This allow for the current surge when the compressor starts to not trip the breaker and the wire to be sized for the running current, which is much less. The internal overloads in the A/C unit will protect the wire from damage if something happens inside the unit.
OK, OK I’m not that old either, so let me ammend my statement. In my 30 years of electrical work, it has never been code to used #14 on a 20 amp breaker. Of course, years ago there were few electrical inspections in some areas and the electricians wired any way they wanted.
Basically their are exceptions within the NEC that would allow 20A on a 14 AWG conductor technically via 240.4(G)( ala: 310.16 "*" ) but they are specific to their use. As a general branch circuit wiring issue for 14 AWG it should remain at 15A for OCPD as defined by 240.6(D)
Now the great thing about HVAC units today is they clearly tell you the MAX OCPD and the MIN Conductor sizing which makes it VERY easy to size it and verify it for the home inspector but not unless you actually open up the disconnect and so on and view it in regards to HVAC units.
In regards to the GFCI, better result would simply be to test the device at the device itself.
In regards to the statement about the EGC being smaller than the other conductors, this was done back some time ago in that the EGC was smaller than the actual grounded and ungrounded conductor but has not been the case for nearly 50 years i believe.
If it was old wiring and the EGC’s were smaller I would not worry to much about that as it was allowed at the time of it’s installation but is not a “ALWAYS” case in todays romex cable.
Lastly i can GUARANTEE you FPE never made a breaker that was designed for (2) conductors under the single connection point. If the Electrician was worth his salt he would have done the same thing but simply spliced the two together with a properly sized pigtail to the breaker itself.
