Originally Posted By: rray This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
The panels I inspect typically fall into two categories: (1) beautiful and (2) yukky–FPE, Zinsco, fuses, etc.
In my beautiful category yesterday, I had what I would consider an excessive amount of excess wiring in the panel. Is there a reference somewhere for the amount of excess wiring in the panel? Do we call it out as a defect and why? What are the ramifications of excess wiring?
I'm posting this for one of my employees because I don't seem to be able to convey to him the problems as I see them. I figure there are some code gurus, electrical gurus, or someone who just plain talks better about electricity than I do that can do a better job than me on this one. Thanks.
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Russel,
While I don't know which code would cover how much wiring a panel can have, I do know that the panel dimensions were increased to account for the number of circuits that it contains. I would have to assume that if a panel was manufactured for 40 circuits that would be the maximum number of circuits you could safely place in that panel. Adding twin breakers to the panel would increase the number of conductors, there by increasing the wire fill rate, which would most likely be a violation of the codes.
Overcrowding in the panel is a safety issue, since it will increase heat in the panel. It is also more difficult to work on a panel that is overcrowded, making it a safety issue. It also leads to other problems, such as doubling up the neutral wires under one termination since you run out of terminals. Panels contain a specific number of terminations which can handle a specific number of conductors for the circuits which the panel can handle. If you run out of terminals, chances are you have reached the fill rate of the panel.
I have seen panels which had grounding bars added, but one must be careful that only grounding conductors are placed under those terminations unless it is specifically bonded to the neutral/grounding bars in the original panel.
I will take a look in the NEC later to see if I can find anything but I don't suspect that I will. I will probably end up going to a manufacturer for this information.
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
Overcrowding in the panel is a safety issue, since it will increase heat in the panel.
I tend to agree with this statement. I like to be able to visually trace wires throughout the service panel. If I can't, I'll call out excessive wiring as more of a cosmetic defect rather than as something in need of repair.
Unless, of course, it is extremely excessive. In these cases I may recommend further evaluation. There are "wire bending specifications" to consider. Ample space is needed to make proper wire bends without kinking or breaking the wires.
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hi guys, personally I agree with all of you.
That aside the NEC rules are not so restrictive, the NEC allows 40% fill, that does not sound like much (less than half full) but in truth it is difficult to achieve 40% fill in a panel.
Where splices are made the allowable fill increases to 75%
Quote:
312.8 Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices.
Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall not be used as junction boxes, auxiliary gutters, or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other switches or overcurrent devices, unless adequate space for this purpose is provided. The conductors shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 40 percent of the cross-sectional area of the space, and the conductors, splices, and taps shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that space.
Lets say the gutter space of a panel is 3"D x 2"W or an area of 6 sq in.
At a 40% fill that 6 sq in will take about 245 single 14 AWGs or 175 single 12 AWGs
If anyone finds a panel with more than 200 conductors on just one side take a picture, I would like to see it.
By the way that is with THHN insulation if the insulation is TW or old rubber it will be less but still a very high number.
I will post some pictures to this thread of some well done panels and some hacked up ones.
Originally Posted By: rray This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
But one doesn’t necessarily have to have 245 wires. Take an extreme example: how about one circuit breaker in a panel that could hold 20 circuit breakers, but there are, say, 245 feet of wire mushed into the panel? Would that be excessive?
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
rkirk wrote:
how about one circuit breaker in a panel that could hold 20 circuit breakers, but there are, say, 245 feet of wire mushed into the panel? Would that be excessive?
Ahhh  I would hate it, and when I work in a panel like this I am very likely to clean it up.
In the NEC there is nothing equivalent to excessive wiring and as long as you have not exceeded 40% fill it is allowed.
So if you tell the client to have electrician check for excessive wiring in a panel you may come out looking like you making a big deal over nothing.
The panels I work in are 6.5" deep x 20.5" wide resulting in a gutter space of about 6" x 4" or 24 sq in. or 720 - 12 AWGs, I do not do that either.
Originally Posted By: rray This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Okay, let me ask this then. Wouldn’t all the bends cause excessive heating at those bends? I know it does when my extension cords get all knotted up. What is the difference between one wire in a panel and my three-wire (or more) extension cord?
Originally Posted By: Mike Parks This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
What are the ramifications of excess wiring?
The ramifications are great if you are not qualified to call these out.
These are "code" issues.
Just the same as if your were ever to say that: "this is poor workmanship".
Again a code issue. Not widely inforced, but still a code issue.
"Wouldn't all the bends cause excessive heating at those bends?"
Are they excessive?
I would rather see you say something like: " I have seen better work".
This sends the same message without claiming to be an expert.
Why I want you to be careful is, here is an example from today.
What I am going to state (in my report) is that the entire electrical system needs to be replaced.
If you make statements, you better be damn sure that you can defend them.
My above statement was given to my client at the time of the inspection. She was in tears. I do not like to give this information. But , is she not better served having this now?
BTW She ask me if I was the one who was going to inspect her current home (tomorrow).
Originally Posted By: rray This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
But you didn’t answer any of my questions, Mike.
I know they're code issues, and the Jerry Pecks of the world know that I don't go nowhere near the code books. My employee's curiosity, as well as my own, has me on this one, though. Anywhere care to anwer my questions?
Originally Posted By: Ronald Reedy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Here is one for you
He wired it into the panel left it bare and put bait between the bare leads to kill the squirrel in the attic.  
-- The best place to start your real estate transaction is with the home inspection
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
Okay, let me ask this then. Wouldn't all the bends cause excessive heating at those bends?
I have never heard of bends causing heating at these voltages.
The one code article that might be able to be used that I can think has to do with the bundling of conductors.
The thing is the wires have to be bundled for 24" continuous inches before the code article takes effect. 310.15(B)(2)
You will not find many home panels with more than 24" of bundled (tie wrapped) conductors.
Another thing that is often forgot about is that wires getting warm is normal hot is another issue.
Circuit breakers when loaded to their rating are allowed to be 40 C (104 F) over ambient temp. at the wire terminal.
Wire insulation controls the ampacity we can run them at, look at the different ratings of 10 AWG.
30 amps with 60 Celsius (140 F) insulation
35 amps with 75 Celsius (167 F) insulation
40 amps with 90 Celsius (194 F) insulation
The reason for this is as more current is carried by a conductor the warmer it will get, the insulation has to be able to deal with this.
The Neat and Workmanlike part in the code is unused in my state, it may well be used in Mikes area.
I have also been told by inspectors in IL, NJ and UT that they do not use it.
An electrician that takes the inspector to court after getting cited for Neat and Workmanlike will prevail as it is not definable.
Almost every time that Neat and Workmanlike could be cited you can find other very enforceable code articles to use. 
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I think the bottom line is there probably isn’t a safety hazard with extra wires in a panel … assuming you dont see really tight bends on larger feeder wires (#8 or larger) and ya don’t have to stuff wires back in a panel/box just to get the cover back on. Poor workmanship is not something readily enforceable by codes officials, so an HI might be on a slippery slope flagging that …
But I would still note signs of poor workmanship, maybe even as a concern, because that can be an indication that there may be other poor workmanship not readily visible that could be a safety hazard (bad splices, loose connections, undersized receptacle pigtails, etc.). All the good electricians I know are for the most part pretty meticulous and pride themselves on good workmanship ...
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: Mike Parks This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
But you didn’t answer any of my questions, Mike.
"The panels I inspect typically fall into two categories: (1) beautiful and (2) yukky--FPE, Zinsco, fuses, etc."
I thought I did. "...if you are not qualified to call these out."
This is not a HI call.
Bob
"The Neat and Workmanlike part in the code is unused in my state, it may well be used in Mikes area."
It is usable however, I have never seen it used. It is not, to my knowledge used.
"An electrician that takes the inspector to court after getting cited for Neat and Workmanlike will prevail as it is not definable."
That could be won, however, the code violations are usuall used first.
I would call you and the other experts in court and ask one question:
In your expert opinion is this a workman like installation?
"Poor workmanship is not something readily enforceable by codes officials, so an HI might be on a slippery slope flagging that ."
I say a damn slippery slope.
Bottom line is that the workmanlike section should remain because it make the electrician(s) think that he might have to defend his "crap" work. The majority that do it correctly laugh at this section.
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Bob B,
That is so beautiful, I just wanna cry.
My only problem would be the ties, I don't like to see them because if you have to pull one of those wires back out, you have to cut the ties to do it, meaning you would have to turn off the power to all the circuits on that side, so you could safely remove them.
Yepper, even in the case they are run in conduit, at least I am assuming those are plastic bushings.
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
jmyers wrote:
My only problem would be the ties,
Joe I agree with you, when I do service calls the ties are a pain.
That said when guys are working for me I like to let them do it their way, as long as it is still quility work, I always seem to be able to get a lot from the guys working for me and I like to think that comes from treating them with respect.
Beside how could I tell him to undue that good work? 
Here is a couple more pictures, the wiring method is MC cable.
Originally Posted By: jfarsetta This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
In the older ITE Pushmatic panels I see, the electrical contractors used to twist all the neutrals together and form like a super neutral. Then they would terminate them under in a single, large conductor, neutral hold-down. The neureal and ground bus bar in these panels were screws with large heads. Hot a great system.
I think it sucks, but lo and behold... the AHJ's inspection sticker right beside it...
-- Joe Farsetta
Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."
