Beautiful panels

Originally Posted By: pdacey
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We all post pictures of horror when it come to electrical panels. Yesterday I came across probably the neatest electrical install I have ever seen. I just thought it deserved some credit.



SE panel
[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/I/IMG_4004.JPG ]


One of two sub panels. Both of equal quality

[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/I/IMG_4022.JPG ]


--
Slainte!

Patrick Dacey
swi@satx.rr.com
TREC # 6636
www.southwestinspections.com

Originally Posted By: jpope
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Panels like that can make our job a bit easier.



Jeff Pope


JPI Home Inspection Service


“At JPI, we’ll help you look better”


(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: pdacey
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yes they do.


The client asked me if I knew a good electrician because she wanted some work done in the house. I suggested she call the original sparky from when the house was built because he did such a nice job. He put his sticker on the door to the panels.


--
Slainte!

Patrick Dacey
swi@satx.rr.com
TREC # 6636
www.southwestinspections.com

Originally Posted By: ssmith3
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http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/P/P9080008.JPG ]



Scott Smith


Marinspection


Vice President NorCal NACHI Chapter


I graduated from collage. Now my life is all mixed up.

Originally Posted By: Joey D’Adamo
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Only thing is with all the cable ties I feel sorry for whoever has to remove something that’s there now because it will have to be partially undone.


Originally Posted By: bbadger
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They do look good, I do have a question about this one.


http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/I/IMG_4022.JPG

How are all those NM cables entering the box?

Are they all in the same connector.


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: pdacey
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Yes they are.



Slainte!


Patrick Dacey
swi@satx.rr.com
TREC # 6636
www.southwestinspections.com

Originally Posted By: pdickerson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Back to the main panel that started this conversation… Not including the 2-pole breaker at the upper left, I count 5 red wires (indicating 220 volt circuits or edison circuits), but I don’t see any handle ties. What’s up?


I saw a panel a couple of weeks ago that was even prettier...and it had 2 breakers that were too big for the wires. Looks can be deceiving.


Originally Posted By: tbrady
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Possibly the red wire is proper color for hot with a shared neutral in a three wire configuration - ok to be on seperate breaker for branch circuit icon_idea.gif


Originally Posted By: bbadger
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I asked about the use of one connector for all the cables because that would be a code violation in my area. I have heard that in some areas it is an accepted practice.


Typically a connector must be UL listed for the amount of cables used, I have never seen a connector listed for this many cables.

However considering how neat this electrician works I would assume that they know the local rules or allowances.

pdickerson wrote:
Back to the main panel that started this conversation... Not including the 2-pole breaker at the upper left, I count 5 red wires (indicating 220 volt circuits or edison circuits), but I don't see any handle ties. What's up?


Those are Square D two pole breakers, they only have one handle for both poles, no handle tie required.

When you flip that one handle both poles open.

We all should try to use the proper terminology, the use of "220 volts" generally shows inexperience with electrical systems.

Houses will have a 120/240 volt service or some larger multi unit type dwellings will have a 208Y/120 volt service.


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: tbrady
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Sorry - I thought paul was refering to the 2nd picture sub panel where there is only one obvious two pole breaker icon_confused.gif


Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



icon_twisted.gif


On the other hand, the pictures are very nice and the work shows a neat and workmanlike installation, but the use of one connector or opening for all of the cables is a MAJOR NEC DEFECTand has been one for many, many years!

There can be no assumed local rule that would stand up in court if there was a FIRE in that cabinet, and those here who want to think so, are missing the purpose of the rules in the National Electrical Code!

It takes some very careful understanding of the rues that follow below in order to give a qualified personal opinion.

My comments and opinions are based upon Fact's and I am sorry if this upsets anyone, but it is the name of the game, you have got to Cover Your a$%!

Quote:
312.5 Cabinets, Cutout Boxes, and Meter Socket Enclosures.

Conductors entering enclosures within the scope of this article shall be protected from abrasion and shall comply with 312.5(A) through (C).

(A) Openings to Be Closed. Openings through which conductors enter shall be adequately closed.

(B) Metal Cabinets, Cutout Boxes, and Meter Socket Enclosures. Where metal enclosures within the scope of this article are installed with open wiring or concealed knob-and-tube wiring, conductors shall enter through insulating bushings or, in dry locations, through flexible tubing extending from the last insulating support and firmly secured to the enclosure.

(C) Cables. Where cable is used, each cable shall be secured to the cabinet, cutout box, or meter socket enclosure.

Exception: Cables with entirely nonmetallic sheaths shall be permitted to enter the top of a surface-mounted enclosure through one or more nonflexible raceways not less than 450 mm (18 in.) or more than 3.0 m (10 ft) in length, provided all the following conditions are met:

(a) Each cable is fastened within 300 mm (12 in.), measured along the sheath, of the outer end of the raceway.

(b) The raceway extends directly above the enclosure and does not penetrate a structural ceiling.

(c) A fitting is provided on each end of the raceway to protect the cable(s) from abrasion and the fittings remain accessible after installation.

(d) The raceway is sealed or plugged at the outer end using approved means so as to prevent access to the enclosure through the raceway.

(e) The cable sheath is continuous through the raceway and extends into the enclosure beyond the fitting not less than 6 mm (? in.).

(f) The raceway is fastened at its outer end and at other points in accordance with the applicable article.

(g) Where installed as conduit or tubing, the allowable cable fill does not exceed that permitted for complete conduit or tubing systems by Table 1 of Chapter 9 of this Code and all applicable notes thereto.

FPN: See Table 1 in Chapter 9, including Note 9, for allowable cable fill in circular raceways.

See 310.15(B)(2)(a) for required ampacity reductions for multiple cables installed in a common raceway.


The exception, which was added for the 1999 NEC, spells out the requirements that allow multiple nonmetallic cables such as Type NM, NMC, NMS, UF, SE, and USE to enter the top of a surface-mounted enclosure through a nonflexible raceway sleeve or nipple. These sleeves or nipples are permitted to be 18 in. to 10 ft in length. However, if the nipple length exceeds 24 in., ampacity adjustment factors as specified in 310.15(B)(2) apply.

The main rule of 312.5(C) prohibits the installation of several cables bunched together and run through a knockout or chase nipple. Individual cable clamps or connectors are required to be used with only one cable per clamp or connector, unless the clamp or connector is identified for more than a single cable.


2002 NECode Information Courtesy: www.nfpa.org


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jtedesco wrote:
![icon_twisted.gif](upload://xjO326gspdTNE5QS3UTl0a0Rtvy.gif)

On the other hand, the pictures are very nice and the work shows a neat and workmanlike installation, but the use of one connector or opening for all of the cables is a MAJOR NEC DEFECTand has been one for many, many years!

There can be no assumed local rule that would stand up in court if there was a FIRE in that cabinet, and those here who want to think so, are missing the purpose of the rules in the National Electrical Code!

It takes some very careful understanding of the rues that follow below in order to give a qualified personal opinion.

My comments and opinions are based upon Fact's and I am sorry if this upsets anyone, but it is the name of the game, you have got to Cover Your <b>a$%</b>!



Joe it does not upset me you can rant all you want, not every municipality enforces the NEC in the same way, that is a fact not an opinion.

Sometimes they make amendments sometimes they just look the other way.

A HI telling an EC that this is a serious defect is going to fighting an uphill battle if the local AHJ or local electrical inspector accepts this installation.

Bob


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: jbushart
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Perhaps the HI should not write it as a “serious defect”, per se, but simply recommend an evaluation be performed by a qualified electrician prior to close to ensure that the condition is safe.



Home Inspection Services of Missouri


www.missourihomeinspection.com


"We're NACHI. Get over it."

www.monachi.org

Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jbushart wrote:
Perhaps the HI should not write it as a "serious defect", per se, but simply recommend an evaluation be performed by a qualified electrician prior to close to ensure that the condition is safe.


That sounds great to me. ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I am afraid that hearsay doesn’t cut it in this city, they use the 2002 NEC with only one amendment, so my references are correct and anything beyond that is illegal. icon_rolleyes.gif


Quote:
CITY OF SAN ANTONIO
P . O . B O X 8 3 9 9 6 6
S A N A N T O N I O T E X A S 7 8 2 8 3 - 3 9 6 6

TO: ALL CITIZENS OF THE CITY OF SAN ANTONIO CONCERNED WITH
ELECTRICAL CODE REGULATIONS RE ADOPTION NOTICE OF THE 2002 EDITION OF THE NATIONAL ELECTRIC CODE


NFPA 70 WITH AN AMENDMENT TO THE EXISTING CITY CODE

This is an official notice that the Electrical Examining and Supervising Board conducted a public hearing and adopted the 2002 edition of the National Electric Code NFPA 70 at their meeting of December 10, 2002. City Council adopted an amendment to the City Code forwarded by the Electric Board on February 13, 2003 regulating the use of Non-Metallic Sheathed Cables as listed in Article 334 of the 2002 edition of the National Electric Code (NEC) NFPA 70.

Below listed is the amendment to the NEC as stated in section 10-94 of the City Code regarding the use of these cables.

Section 10-94 of the City Code is hereby enacted as follows
a. Non-metallic sheathed cables shall not be used in any multifamily dwellings or other structures exceeding three floors above grade.

These provisions shall become effective Monday March 31, 2003 for all projects permitted after the effective date.

Any questions pertaining to this matter may be directed to the Chief Electrical Inspector at 207-8286

Department of Building Inspections
February 19, 2003
PP



--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: pdacey
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I did not count the number of cables coming through the connector and none of my pictures has the connector in them.


I will try to access the house again next week to clarify. It's vacant.

This house is only 6 years old and inside city limits. The electrician who performed the installation is very reputable around town. It also had to pass all of the inspections by the city.


--
Slainte!

Patrick Dacey
swi@satx.rr.com
TREC # 6636
www.southwestinspections.com

Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



pdacey wrote:
This house is only 6 years old and inside city limits. The electrician who performed the installation is very reputable around town. It also had to pass all of the inspections by the city.


This is exactly the situation I was talking about. This leaves the typical HI in a tough spot in my opinion.

It is a NEC violation and Joe has shown that San Antonio follows the NEC.

A person with Joe's background and experience would have little trouble convincing all the party's involved that this is a violation of San Antonios rules. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

However an HI (and this is not a slam on HIs) does not usually have the level of code knowledge that would be required to argue the point effectively.

In the end the HIs credibility will be called into question when the local building dept gives them the brush off.

Joe's right it is a violation, I had said that before Joe posted to this thread.

bbadger wrote:
I asked about the use of one connector for all the cables because that would be a code violation in my area. I have heard that in some areas it is an accepted practice.

Typically a connector must be UL listed for the amount of cables used, I have never seen a connector listed for this many cables.


That said, it is also a fact that what the NEC actually requires and what is actually enforced is not the same thing.

Each HI has to pick and choose their battles based on their level of expertise on a given subject

It is not a perfect world....

Bob


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN