Faulty GFCI's?

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Mike Parks wrote:
What i am saying is ??have you ever reset a GFCI and it did not engage??


Yes, and they are defective TOO.

Quote:
The GFCI is still working (for protection) but not functioning per the manufactures specs.


No, the GFCI is NOT still working. The ground fault circuit interrupter FUNCTION may function ONCE YOU FINALLY GET IT RESET RIGHT, however, the GFCI device (the receptacle, the gfci circuit AND the switching / tripping / resetting mechanism) IS NOT working unless it ALWAYS resets and resets properly.

Quote:
Is it defective or is the person resetting it only pushing in one side of the reset?


It is the GFCI device. IT SHOULD NOT RESET ANYWAY EXCEPT THE CORRECT WAY. If you can press the reset button and it reset incorrectly, it is defective. I repeat IT SHOULD NOT reset any way except the correct way, otherwise it IS defective.

Quote:
This is common with the first generation GFCI's.


No, this is common only with some GFCIs. The first generation GFCIs did not have this problem, they are other problems. First generation being back in the early 70's, and these were typically much later versions, I am thinking maybe 90's versions.

Quote:
Would I replace them yes. Is it a safety hazard no.


A GFCI which resets revers polarity is not a safety hazard? Hmmmm ....

Is a reverse polarity receptacle a safety hazard? If not, why not? If yes, then why is not a reverse polarity GFCI a safety hazard?

You've left me scratchin' my head trying to figure out that logic, Mike.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Joe H.,


Same question I just asked Mike: Is a revers polarity receptacle defective? Is a reverse polarity GFCI defective? I hope the answer is the same for both.

Regardless of whether or not you can play with the reset button and get it to sometimes reset properly.

Next question is: If it has a reset button, is it always supposed to reset properly? If yes, then it is defective if it does not, correct? If no, please explain.

Contact Steve Campolo for information about defective GFCIs and what was done and why.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



If as a home inspector one of us can’t reset it properly the first time, what are the chances the homeowner who is clueless about them will get it right??


Defective. Replace it.


Originally Posted By: jpope
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.






![](upload://gQhfwoqe4NR1OVvnFnjks22NcBT.jpeg)

After resetting



Before tripping



After resetting



I call them defective

I know Jerry. I'll be getting my Sure Test soon


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



That looks like the neutral point of the relay is failing. In the first case you have a downstream connected load showing up 120v on the <open> neutral and the neutral to ground light comes on. In the second case there is only the 120v hot, no back circuit, so you only see the line to ground light.


You are right, this is a bad GFCI.


The new standard would not let this reset at all.


Originally Posted By: jpope
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Quote:
Jeff,

How did you get my name?

Any GFCI that indicates reversed polarity or exhibits open neutral should be replaced. I can understand how an open neutral can happen as all receptacle GFCI's have two sets of contacts, but degrade into reverse polarity...that's a new one. I would guess that the reverse polarity was there since it was installed and not slowly morph into a problem.

The study was published several years ago in the IAEI NEWS and the ASHI Reporter. Essentially, home inspectors were asked to review there reports and tabulate how many inoperable GFCI's they found when doing home inspections. The overall average was about 11% inoperable. After the Leviton study, Nema & UL did a similar and more comprehensive study which indicated about the same inoperability rate. The study also found that lightening and weather infiltration were two of the major causes for inoperability. UL has issued upgraded requirements on GFCI's that consider the findings of the report. This went into effect 1-1-03.

The IAEI report is available from the IAEI, and the Nema report from Nema. You can contact Bill Grande at wgrande@leviton.com who can send you a package of GFCI pamphlets that can be included in your inspection reports.

Remember that the older GFCI's were able to be reset, even though the device was inoperable. Leviton has pioneered a "reset lockout" that prevents resetting a GFCI if it cannot pass its internal test. It is called the "SmartLock". You can learn more about this on Leviton's website. http://www.leviton.com/.

Hope this helps.

Steve



--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I bet if you will willing to trip and reset these things several times they would reset normally, depending on how bad the contact was. It may just be a symptom of them never being tested. (accumulated dirt)


Normal contact design is such that they “wipe” when they make and that is to clean them. The contract strap bends a little and causes the surface to slide a bit.


I’m surprised the Leviton guy didn’t figure out the reversed polarity indication was a back circuit from a down stream load. This is the same way you get shocked on a white wire when you open up a wirenut.


Originally Posted By: dbozek
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Quote:
"You do not want a sparky to come in and say that the HI does not know how to reset GFCI's."???? This would be one for the books - mark the date and time - it is the ELECTRICIAN who does not know a defective GFCI when he sees one.


Jerry Jerry Jerry.....I use a sure test as well as the widget that J Pope uses.....and I'm here to tell ya.....I know a bad gfci when I see one.......I expect an apology from ya.....or at least fix your statement by saying that some electricians don't know a bad gfci when they see one....ok....?

Why is it that I have found two deragatory comments in relations to contractors in just one day of reading these posts?? If ya'll got a problem with us why even read what we write? I do not bash HI's to the homeowner. Overall HI's are kinda nice people and have a job to do just like us sparkies. Now c'mon let's all join hands and sing kambaya.


--
You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



dbozek wrote:
Jerry Jerry Jerry.....I use a sure test as well as the widget that J Pope uses.....and I'm here to tell ya.....I know a bad gfci when I see one.......I expect an apology from ya.....or at least fix your statement by saying that some electricians don't know a bad gfci when they see one....ok....?


Dennis,

Not "that some electricians don't", but that one actually stated that a defective GFCI was not defective, and that some electrician's don't know ... You have to be there to get the difference. Like, 'It's not who you know, but WHO you KNOW.', sometimes you have to listen carefully to get it (admittedly, that is hard to do with typing).

Quote:
Why is it that I have found two deragatory comments in relations to contractors in just one day of reading these posts?? If ya'll got a problem with us why even read what we write? I do not bash HI's to the homeowner. Overall HI's are kinda nice people and have a job to do just like us sparkies. Now c'mon let's all join hands and sing kambaya.


We don't bash contractor for the sake of bashing contractors (although, you gotta admit, it's fun sometimes ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif) ), but sometimes must correct them (bash them if you prefer, but we are correcting them) when they make misstatements. Don't you agree that misstatements (from an HI or a contractor) should be corrected, least they are allowed to stand as being correct?


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: dbozek
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



sparkies do something wrong is not so true. That would be like me saying that all HI’s do something. I am sure there are some of ya that do sumthin right icon_lol.gif



You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Dennis,


Don't recall anyone here saying that ALL electricians do, or do not do, something. I believe those comments were made as regards to 'electricians who do blah-blah-blah', which does not mean 'all electricians doing everything'. Like saying "I drive fast." (I do), however, I do not drive "fast" all the time, nor do I drive "fast" everywhere.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: dbozek
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Maybe so Jerry but then you didn’t say “some” electricians either…so which is it…some…a few…all…and what about HI’s…do all HI’s know a bad gfci when they see one…or is it just some or a few that don’t? Either way…the way your comment is worded…it appears to me that you meant ALL sparkies for if it was to be only some…it seems you would have worded it that way. Now…about that song kumbaya nachi_sarcasm.gif



You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

Originally Posted By: roconnor
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



“Dennis” and Jerry … maybe ya can both lighten up … icon_wink.gif


P.S. "Dennis" ... I sent an email to your old address, but I didn't get a reply ... so I don't know if you are really the "original Dennis" or a new and improved imposter. But only the real original Dennis will know how many times we talked on the phone ... it's more than once, but less than five. Do ya remember what we talked about? Whats your call to set the record straight?


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong