What category vent, IV?
According to @tglaze mfg’s installation manual, the vent does not appear to have proper clearance.
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The house hadn’t burned down yet, so what’s the problem? 
Off the top of my head? 
Without access to historical meta data that manufacturers and regulatory bodies have? Or being a professional who studies lawsuits, SHTF situations and develops the standards we go by? Bird nests more probable, people hanging stuff getting in the way, corner air current eddying with persistent winds, people cracking a window open for air and yes malfunctioning furnace CO could back draft in or up soffit vents. 0 ppm is best. Yes, there are back pressure sensors, etc, but those safety features are there in a worst case scenario.
RN I don’t have time to think of more scenarios. Maybe some HVAC specialist can pile on.
Mr. Andersen says he doesn’t see any moisture damage. And whatabout that condensation drain line? And have you measured the exhaust CO?
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Not enough overhead clearance.
Mr Anderson knows best though.
Mention of the drain line end point might have merit if the high efficiency gas appliance was a replacement of a mid efficiency.
I’ll let you all discuss what could be from what you can’t see.
So I guess you were not around working as an HVAC diagnostic tech or engineer experiencing and dealing with the issues of condensing furnace when they first came out?
You have all kinds of opinions, backed up by nothing, responding to information not presented by the OP. And your not even a NACHI member, commenting on standards you have not bothered to subscribe to.
Without access to historical meta data that manufacturers and regulatory bodies have?
But you still have an opinion, based on what exactly?
Or being a professional who studies lawsuits, SHTF situations and develops the standards we go by?
The standards do not specificly address this installation. It does state what must be observed and reported in a Home Inspection report.
Bird nests more probable, people hanging stuff getting in the way, corner air current eddying with persistent winds, people cracking a window open for air and yes malfunctioning furnace CO could back draft in or up soffit vents.
And you see any of this in the OP’s pic? So what supports what you are putting in the report? Your wild ass guess?
Soffit vents? You see any soffit vents within 12" of this termination kit?
Yes, there are back pressure sensors, etc, but those safety features are there in a worst case scenario.
But I thought you said you had no information of the Mfg meta data?
Yes, the clearance of the termination kit is likely less than 12".
Is this a problem? Do you know enough to determine it is a problem? Do you have the authority to state this is noncompliance and requires the installation be torn out, repair the wall, reorient the HVAC equipment to the required flue slope back to the equipment? All to get a couple inches of clearance that will not likely change a single thing, because there is no evidence of anything actually happening. Talking about “Corner air current eddying with persistent winds, people cracking a window open for air and yes malfunctioning furnace CO could back draft in or up soffit vents” is not evident, nor probable, as there is no window or door within 12", no soffit vent, no bird nest or restrictions evident.
(6) General Exclusions.
(a) Home inspectors are not required to report on:
8. Predict future condition, including but not limited to failure of components;
11. Inspect special equipment or accessories that are not listed as components to be
inspected in this rule.
Inspectors are allowed to talk about things outside Inspection Standards, if they are qualified to do so. By your own admission, you lack these qualifications.
(iii) State any systems or components so inspected that do not function as
intended, allowing for normal wear and tear, or adversely affect the
habitability of the dwelling;
Can you be more specific of these conditions creating this adverse condition?
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Thanks Anderson
David’s The Best!
Ad hominem attacks with nothing specific.
Please tell what exactly is the ‘real serious problem aside from this’? Is that a speculative comment on your part? You insinuated something without an explanation. We are here to help Cole Temple, what did he miss? It is more serious than CO levels, so you got a doozy to explain.
Extremely simple comment that has no bearing on a vent clearance distance. Value to the Thread - zero. Value to a 5 year old - golden.
What does that have to do with a home inspection? Did you not just talk about not going past the SOP? Do you have cognitive dissonance?
If you were paying attention, that is what the OP was asking, he could not find the installation manual.
So as an inspector you do not comment on non standard building practices, because you do not currently see damage? That is absolutely horrible advice.
Thomas Glaze identified the vent, Loni Henderson gave out a standard clearance, and Brian Cawhorn went the distance and answered with a manufacturer specific diagram.
You got to throw shade.
Simon directly asked me a question on this Message Board, and I responded with specific possibilities, on this MB. Which one of those were incorrect? Why do you think those are the standards? Lets hear some of your penetrating insight. Or do you think it is arbitrary and has no factual basis?
In a report I would just write up that the minimum clearance distance is insufficient and refer to a HVAC contractor for correction. What would you do differently?
Your reading comprehension skills are clearly deficient. You ASsume that a response to a question on this MB would be something I would write in an inspection report. Your ability to obfuscate is astounding.
Again, as for my speculations for why certain standards were incorporated, which were incorrect? Do you think you fulfill a position such as Paul Abernathy who I believe is a NEC consultant? Would he talk down to newbies on the MB?
I will break it down for you. A blocked gas fired appliance exhaust vent is a safety concern. Have you never worked in the field and seen a birds nest on/in/covering a flue pipe? Where do you think a bird would place a nest on a vertical wall? Near the bottom? Or a protrusion as high as possible right up against a soffit? How many thousands of times do you think this happens in the US annually? Has it ever blocked an exhaust pipe? What happens when a gas fired appliance exhaust pipe is blocked?
Here is the most relevant question:
What kind of a pedantic are you?
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First of all you are incorrect in stating ‘likely less than’. The picture definitively shows it is less than 12".
Secondly, you are stating that the installation as is is fine, because you choose to ignore manufacturer installation guidelines. Again, about the dumbest, most asinine advice one can give on an inspection message board.
You sound like one of those tradespeople hacks giving a lame excuse for a deficient install.
Third, you have zero authority and zero liability for your inadvisable advice. The local AHJ and OP, respectively, do. Most, if not all, AHJs are going to defer to manufacturer specs.
So I leave it up to the reader: Follow the installation specs, write and document, inform the client, defer to a competent HVAC contractor, protect your self from liability.
OR listen to someone on the internet saying it doesn’t matter.
Comedy gold
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Think it’s time for you to go by-by… I’m willing to discuss, but not listening to your degrading slander of me or other members here…
This tread turned into a pissing contest, but I hope you got a wider perspective of this issue to consider before creating the conflict of trades that will follow your report. No HVAC contractor you recommend for further evaluation, is going to stand by a recommendation to tear this install apart without something actually happening that needs to be addressed. This becomes a who’s right in the eyes of your clients, and a thread here about what asses they are for calling it fine.
Questions I asked are the questions they will be asking. It is not your job to gather those answers for them. It is your job to point this out, considering all real issues present that are associated. That is all up to you. But we can’t call CO leaking into windows, doors, soffit vents when they are not there (within the 12"). Those are things to ask yourself, but what you say might happen in the future is specifically addressed in HI Rules as something your not required to do. In reality, things you should not do.
A lot of responses mentioned install manuals. These manuals do address code considerations, but also based on system operation and performance. In the instance of this type termination kit, and pipe locations, they are addressing the air intake sucking in combustion gas from the vent.
This is to prevent a snow ball forming on the end of the intake pipe shutting down the system. This was a big problem when these furnaces showed up on the scene.
Same as the clearance to the ground. The install manual requires a height above ground to prevent snow blockage. Is it possible that it may need to be higher in Syracuse, NY with lake effect snows vs. Long Island, NY? Or that you can go lower in Orlando Fla with no ill effect? That is left up to the installer. The install manual is not the bible.
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You immediately went into an ad-hominem attack instead of reading, understanding, discussing a simple question.
You stop, I stop. Simple.
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So now you are speaking for all HVAC contractors?
Who will be asking Cole if he measured the CO at the exhaust?
Glad you finally admit something that was stated by new inspectors, that condensation can be a problem. Limited areas, like being adjacent to a soffit or a corner, concentrate the humidity. I grew up near Syracuse, NY, a better example for where this one aspect would be even more problematic would be further north.
NO. It is NOT left up to the installer to decide the validity of installation clearances. Manufacturer warranties are VOID if those guidelines are not followed. Of course out in the field they can do whatever the hell they want. That is why there is a need for home inspectors. The HVAC tech takes the liability if they do not follow AHJ or manufacturer installation.
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I reread the entire post from the beginning. One of his first statements was “did you read the manual provided”
He then responded to more than one inspector’s direct questions. Including the silly correlation to a radon exhaust pipe.
He then explained how an installation manual may be incorrect or not applicable, such as snow clearances for all applications even in different climate zones.
He often references the SoP to help home inspectors stay in their lane because the science behind HVAC is often misunderstood. We see it time and time again; such as a heat-pump with ice during the defrost cycle or attempts to measure temperature rise/drop at supply vents without understanding delta-T.
In the end, he also backed up his conclusion that the vent is fine (only a few inches out of spec), performing as intended with no significant concerns based on his experience and visual evidence.
If you find this degrading or belittling, then I would recommend the ignore button.
But at the end of the day, if I, and others here, find a questionable installation, we will likely “stay in our lane” based on our education and experience, and refer it out or find an expert to advise us. I call my brother in law frequently for electrical concerns. If David just happens to be the expert that my clients hired and he says it’s ok, I’m fine with that. I’m sure it’s happened to all of us and I’m certain that it will not be the last time an expert throws one of us under the bus.
So now you are speaking for all HVAC contractors?
From all the contractors I have worked along side of over many years, I conclude they would not come in there and tear the unit apart to fix this. Again, without a “significant defect” which is a HI Standard, regardless of which one you use.
(5) Required Reporting.
(a) The home inspection report shall include the following:
- A report on any system or component inspected that, in the opinion of the home
inspector, is significantly deficient;
By the way, asked why I quote standards, I quote standards and other data in my post to back up my opinion/statements that folks like you purport I’m making up. When was the last time you read through the standard you follow? That is why I bring them up when applicable.
Who will be asking Cole if he measured the CO at the exhaust?
He was discussing CO poisoning issues, distance from building openings etc. Do you have any idea what the CO levels are in one of these units? It is relative to how much clearance is required. It’s about dilution of the combustion gasses. Why is clearance only 12" when other vents require feet?
Glad you finally admit something that was stated by new inspectors, that condensation can be a problem. Limited areas, like being adjacent to a soffit or a corner, concentrate the humidity. I grew up near Syracuse, NY, a better example for where this one aspect would be even more problematic would be further north.
Well I was born in Concord Ma. Graduated from Northeastern University for HVAC System Design. I taught HVAC at Minuteman Tech where we built stuff for places like MIT. I worked for the biggest HVAC company that serviced the Silicone Valley of the northeast. I was there when the problematic Lennox Pulse Furnace hit the market. So I was further north than you… I do not support that claim.
NO. It is NOT left up to the installer to decide the validity of installation clearances.
The installer has the equipment/training to determine if the system operates as intended after installation. If there is a problem, even when following the Install “Guide”, modifications will be made to make it right.
Manufacturer warranties are VOID if those guidelines are not followed.
That is BS. They will not pay to fix it, but it doesn’t void everything. The first year of the install is on the installing contractor. If anything goes wrong, they have to fix it. It’s up to the Mfg if they will provide the parts for free. You broke it, you can fix it…
However, in the real world; I had three 20 ton compressors fail at a power plant because of engineering design by others. In spite of my diagnosis, the Mfg sent two engineers from Canada to experience, in the field what went wrong with the engineering design, They actually got out from behind their desk and came out into the field! Compressor Mfg replaced all parts. Design company paid all repair labor. So much for voided warranty.
Of course out in the field they can do whatever the hell they want. That is why there is a need for home inspectors. The HVAC tech takes the liability if they do not follow AHJ or manufacturer installation.
So, your saying the Home Inspector has enforcement power to demand repair/replacement?
Seems we have come full circle. Using assumptive problems as posted on this thread, we are going to demand repair without even knowing if our “might happen” claims actually exist. We will recommend further evaluation by the HVAC guys, who will come and say what? “It’s working fine” (if it is or not). So what is the next step, come here and bitch about HVAC guys?
I’m sure it’s happened to all of us and I’m certain that it will not be the last time an expert throws one of us under the bus.
I really don’t care what you, or anyone else here agrees with anything I post. It’s your business. I have the right to voice my opinion, just as you do. My posts are only intended to bring attention to things that may go beyond the obvious. I ask questions we should be considering, which may have already been done. I don’t care if you can find an HVAC guy that will go against my opinion. It’s not the point. Nothing in this business is absolute.
If you elect to step outside your SOP as you are entitled to do, that one is on you. As you say, it voids all warranty.
The clearance is likely less than 12".
Report it.
Then your client will ask, “what should I do about it?”
What is your reply?
Moisture, violation of install guidelines, or CO poisoning? That will really set them off to the deep end.
What happens when your predictions of the future do not materialize? You have gone beyond the standards that protect you, the buyer and the seller.
And behold! We have one right here on the MB!
What most inspectors do is refer it out in order to deflect liability.
Now the OP can either accept David’s advice or toss it into the “further evaluation” ring.
(By the way, your characterization of his website missed the mark. He thoroughly explained what a typical home inspector does vs what he does, which is not home inspecting.)
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