Gas and Copper

Originally Posted By: arosenbaum
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By the way… here are a few pics…


This pic is a BIG NO NO for water lines ![icon_cry.gif](upload://r83gSGUzNOacIqpjVReDwcR83xZ.gif)

and this pic is good and used back in the day for water lines

Like some have said... if you scratch it and you get a nice silver shiny appearance... its galvanized lead or steel and its good....

The "lead poisoning" wording is kind of bad and can throw you off, because you can get poisoning from the Black iron, not the galvanized lead or steel that was used back in the day for water lines:)

I don't mean to scare everyone or confuse people, but I'm guessing one out of 10,000 inspections you'll see black iron water lines because someone would of caught it by now.... hopefully


Originally Posted By: jpope
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Neal and Blaine,


You guys were bustin' my ballz all day yesterday for my comments and Aaron comes in and you say nothing ![eusa_snooty.gif](upload://h0w74XZzBTuIb3EDm0sMZ2yGxHz.gif) ?

I travel half way 'round the world. . . jeeze!

I'll leave this one alone for a bit. I've used up all my frequent flyer miles on my last response.


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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Hey Jeff


I wasn't trying to bust your ballz, I had just never heard of galvanized pipe being a lead hazard ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif) .

However, If you have a dead horse, I'm sure we can all beat it

Blaine


Originally Posted By: psabados
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How’d this post go from copper gas lines to galvanized/lead water lines


Question: What would be the preferred installation for a natural gas bar-b-que hook-up. Not talking about one of those fancy smanshie 10,000 dollar jobs, more like the 750.00 to 1000.00 range metal type installed on a deck? Had one the other day, direct tap into the gas line. soft copper tubing, shut off just under the unit and not at the main. Didn't take any pictures as this unit was excluded in the contract. Unit was bolted to the deck with about 25 feet of gas line underneath the deck. Did however check for leaks, none observed.

If it would have been covered I would have pointed out the lack of shut-off near the main, soft copper installed with lightweight clips, no flex at hook-up, drip line etc. Unit is about 10 years old, very used.

Should this unit be hard piped

Paul


Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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I used to see soft copper piping to gas grills on decks all the time. Not the $750 to $1000 kind, the $199 to $599 kind. A county guy was at an HI with me one time where one was. He said that as long as there was a shutoff near the unit, and a main for the house it was ok. Now this was Loudoun County VA, but they usually had at least a clue about the codes.


Was this one tapped into copper or black iron?

Blaine


Originally Posted By: psabados
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Blaine


Coated steel, outside the house. Someone had taken the time to drill and tap the pipe, installed a nipple and made the connections, just under the 90 degree elbow turn-in into the house. Soft copper to the grill.

BTW Truman Lake temp is in the low 50's.


Paul


Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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Paul,


It sounds ok to me by what the Loudoun guy told me. I'm sure one of our regular code quoters will let us know though.

Blaine

PS Guess fishing at Truman is about over now, huh?


Originally Posted By: nlewis
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Jeff,


I guess I was even more confused when Aaron said "galvanized lead" . Never heard of that one either.

I didn't see anyone mention that the copper has to be sleeved where it runs through a wall or foundation.


Originally Posted By: jpope
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Neal,


Aaron said. . .

"Back in the day, they used galvanized piping (lead or steel)"

"Like some have said... if you scratch it and you get a nice silver shiny appearance... its galvanized lead or steel and its good...."

"you can get poisoning from the Black iron, not the galvanized lead or steel that was used back in the day for water lines:)"

If we don't get lead poisoning from lead pipe OR galvanized pipe, then where does it come from? I think we've covered this ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

I've never heard of "galvanized lead" either


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: nlewis
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“If we don’t get lead poisoning from lead pipe or galvanized pipe, then where does it come from?”


How 'bout lead based paint, bathtub glazing, etc.
Just answering the question! ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


Originally Posted By: jpope
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eusa_doh.gif Guess I walked right into that



Jeff Pope


JPI Home Inspection Service


“At JPI, we’ll help you look better”


(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: arosenbaum
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jpope wrote:
Neal,

Aaron said. . .

"Back in the day, they used galvanized piping (lead or steel)"

"Like some have said... if you scratch it and you get a nice silver shiny appearance... its galvanized lead or steel and its good...."

"you can get poisoning from the Black iron, not the galvanized lead or steel that was used back in the day for water lines:)"

If we don't get lead poisoning from lead pipe OR galvanized pipe, then where does it come from? I think we've covered this ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

I've never heard of "galvanized lead" either


Sorry, I was half asleep when I wrote that.... I meant galvanized iron... not galvanized lead.... what was I thinking


Originally Posted By: jpope
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I figured you actually knew better. I just wanted to see if anyone was paying attention icon_cool.gif



Jeff Pope


JPI Home Inspection Service


“At JPI, we’ll help you look better”


(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: jbushart
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Okay…I have soft flex copper joined to a black iron pipe (the fitting is excessively corroded, but that’s another issue) in a crawl space. The copper runs out the wall above the foundation and, along with the copper lines from the condensing unit, runs up the outside of the home to the attic. The two 90 degree turns are sweated elbows, apparently to avoid kinking. Can this flexible copper pipe be used out doors and is the soldering of the elbows kosher? I thought all fittings for copper flex, when used for gas, had to be flare.


Originally Posted By: cbottger
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Ok guys I just have to jump in here and tell you what I have to deal with on a very regular basis almost every inspection.


ONG (Okla Natural Gas Company) whom controls the on/off valve at the gas meter for the past few years will not turn the gas on to a residence that has any form of soft or hard drawn copper pipe visible to them on a gas supply within the home and that includes the pigtail to the hot water heater between the manual shut off valve and the control valve they the gas company require a flex gas rated pigtail be installed before they will turn on the gas at the meter. Keeps me busy writing


--
Don't argue with an idiot someone watching may not be able to tell the difference.

Originally Posted By: Dean Call
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Around here, copper is not allowed for natural gas because the chemical they put in the gas to create the oder (so a leak will be noticed) attacks the inside of the copper causing a black coating that flakes off.


These black flakes can get under a gas valve and hold it open (just like sticking a 2 X 4 in a door).
This could be very dangerous situation, especially on a furnace or water heater.

It's possible for a "run away" water heater to become a potential bomb when the water becomes super heated.
On a furnace or (any other appliance) the electrical controls and limit switches that interrupt the electricity controlling the gas valve, causing it to shut down would be useless.

Although still illegal, on any appliance that is manually controlled, it wouldn't really be that dangerous since turning a hand operated gas valve would most likely just grind up the flakes, not to mention the operator would be right there at the time and probably would notice if the Log lighter or BBQ grille's valve didn't want to rotate.

The uniform Plumbing code says;
Quote:

Section 1212 - Material for Gas piping.
All pipe used for the installation, extension, alternation, or repair of any gas piping shall be standard weight wrought iron or steel (galvanized or black), yellow brass (containing not more than seventy five (75) percent copper) or internally tinned or equivalently treated copper of iron pipe size. Approved PVC or PE pipe may be used in exterior buried piping systems.


On the subject of piping material for domestic water, galvanized pipe was used for years and yaers (there is no lead in it.) of course we started using copper for water lines years ago but there are still a lot of galvanized water lines still in use.

I think maybe people are getting confused about the lead in the old lead solder we used to use to solder the copper joints.
(My personal therory about that is if you drink 5,000 gallons of water a day for 900 years you might get lead poisening.)


Now we are using lead free solder but also a lot PEX plastic pipe.
Cast iron is still being used for water mains and water service lines to larger commercial buildings.


Originally Posted By: phinsperger
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Dean Call wrote:
... the chemical they put in the gas to create the oder (so a leak will be noticed) ...

The odourant added here is MERCAPTAN (1 lb per million cubic feet). I am not aware of other odourants being used elsewhere.

Dean Call wrote:
... attacks the inside of the copper causing a black coating that flakes off.

These black flakes can get under a gas valve and hold it open (just like sticking a 2 X 4 in a door).

I know this was a problem with older types of galv. First I ever heard of it with copper.


Up Here some copper is allowed
- Copper type K or L up to 1 1/4"
- Copper type GP up to 3/8"


--
.


Paul Hinsperger
Hinsperger Inspection Services
Chairman - NACHI Awards Committee
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Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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Copper pipe is the standard gas installation here. Black iron runs from the meter to the inside shut off manifold, then flexible copper tubing is used from the manifold to the appliance it serves. Shutoff valves are located at the manifold and the appliance. I have never heard of any issue caused by the mercaptan on the inside of the copper gas lines. They have been used with L/P for ages.


Originally Posted By: Dean Call
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Interesting how different materials are used in different parts of the country.


Has anyone ever seen a house blown up from a steam explosion?
A steam explosion is more violent than gas.

I have, back in about 1965 in Shawnee Kansas, it raised the whole house off the foundation, blew out walls and turned the water heater into a rocket when the bottom finally blew out when each gallon of water instantly flashed into ( I believe it's 30,000 gallons) of superheated steam.

The homeowners had just bought the house and had moved in a just few items.
The wife was there cleaning and getting ready to move in when she flushed the toilet and noticed steam coming into it.

She called he husband at work and he said "I don't know what is causing it but you better get out of there".

About an hour or so later the water heater's bottom blew out, rocketing it up through floor joists and rafters edgewise, through the roof and down the street a couple of blocks where it landed in a ball field.
On it's way through, it passed through a cast iron lavatory, breaking it in little pieces.

I've often wondered why they didn't call someone to come and shut the gas off in time. ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)


I got to help my boss at the time and the fire chief spend a couple of days finding all the pieces of pipe and putting them back together to find what caused the explosion.

The conclusion of the investigation was that the gas valve was held open by the black flakes from the soft copper gas line and caused a run away water heater condition.

As the water became super heated way above it's boiling point, the plastic dip tube became soft like spaghetti and forced it's way up into the cold water inlet causing a solid plug and a closed vessel when the toilet had been flushed.

Although the water heater did have a safety valve, it was very old and it too was a solid plug from age and corrosion.
Being under pressure, naturally the water didn't turn into steam until and hour or so later when the bottom blew and lowered the pressure, causing 40 gallons of water to instantly flash into steam.

After that happened, my boss held several slide show seminars educating firemen, plumbers, the gas company and inspectors about what can happen when copper is use for gas.

Believe it or not we still have some DIY folks that continue to use copper for gas on water heaters occasionally.
When I remove one, I can bend the soft copper back and forth and dump out a hand full of black flakes.

Several years ago I turned down a copper gas line on a home inspection, then the homeowner called the city and the city guy told them there was nothing wrong with it so I had to prove it to them too.

We are still passing the word, I guess until they start using some other odor-ant that doesn't attack copper.


Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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That’s interesting Dean. The house I just came in from, a brand new home, has soft copper gas lines.