GFCI outlet question for any qualified sparky

Originally Posted By: kleonard
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I inspected a 60 year old home yesterday that had numerous electrical problems due to handyman wiring. They had installed a GFCI outlet in the bathroom.


I first tested it with my 3 light tester. It appeared to be wired correctly by the indication of 2 yellow lights.

I then hit the red button to trip the GFCI and nothing happened.

I then pushed the test button and it kicked out the re-set button, yet the outlet was still powered.

Would this be a defective GFCI outlet? Wired incorrectly? or maybe both?
Or something else?

Thanks,
Kevin

The-Home-Inspection-Company.com


Originally Posted By: dbush
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Kevin, I am not a “qualified” sparky, but they have the wires connected to the load, vs the line. It is wired backwards.


Dave


--
Dave Bush
MAB Member

"LIFE'S TOUGH, WEAR A HELMET"

Originally Posted By: kleonard
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Thanks Dave.


Originally Posted By: jpope
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dbush wrote:
Kevin, I am not a "qualified" sparky, but they have the wires connected to the load, vs the line. It is wired backwards.

Dave


Is it really that simple Dave?

I've had many occasion where three bathrooms are protected by one GFCI (a single circuit) and the GFCI would trip from one of the bathrooms (other than directly from the GFCI receptacle) but not at the GFCI itself.

While tripped, the GFCI receptacle still had power but the other two bathroom receptacles were dead. Is this the same problem?

I always assumed (there's that word) that it was a defective GFCI.


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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jpope wrote:
While tripped, the GFCI receptacle still had power but the other two bathroom receptacles were dead. Is this the same problem?


Same problem.

Line and load wired backwards.

That is one of the reasons for the new GFCI standards. This was done so often that a new GFCI standard and GFCI design was made so the GFCI will not set if reverse wired (line and load reversed).


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: kleonard
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Thanks for the replies.


Jeff,
This was the only bathroom in the house and the only GFCI outlet except for the one at the whirlpool in the backyard which showed an open ground and did not trip either.

Kevin


Originally Posted By: rmoore
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This is pretty crude…but I thought it might help to explain what happens when a GFCI is hooked up in reverse.


![](upload://1zogTOA8HwP9yWW5r9lTCRIeZeA.jpeg)


--
Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services
Seattle, WA
www.rainspect.com

Originally Posted By: dbowers
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Kevin -


If you trip a GFCI outlet and it trips but stays powered its DEFECTIVE. There could be several reasons for this - but who cares - let the electrician do his job. Write it up and move on to something else.

Dan Bowers, CRI


Originally Posted By: jpeck
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dbowers wrote:
Kevin -

If you trip a GFCI outlet and it trips but stays powered its DEFECTIVE. There could be several reasons for this - but who cares - let the electrician do his job. Write it up and move on to something else.

Dan Bowers, CRI


Dan,

No, it is not DEFECTIVE, it is WIRED INCORRECTLY.

BIG difference between the two and in what we write down.

BUT we still write it down as needing correction.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: kleonard
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I wrote it up as:


"GFCI outlet installed in bathroom but GFCI function is inoperative. Recommend further evaluation by a qualified Electrition."

I wouldn't write it up as defective or as being wired wrong, The only way I would be able to tell if it was wired wrong is to remove it and look at the wires, and the only way I would be able to tell if it's defective is to remove it and test by other means. That's not part of my "visual" inspection. It works or it doesn't work.

I was just curious as to the cause of why it would stay powered after the self tester tripped.

Thanks to all for all the great feedback.

Kevin
The Home Inspection Company


Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Kevin,


While you can't "see" that it is wired incorrectly, you can "know" that being wired incorrectly is the main cause for this condition.

Thus, you could have written something like:

'While the GFCI device does protect receptacles downstream, it does not protect itself, the receptacle outlets in the GFCI device itself did not trip off. The most common cause of this is incorrect wiring. Typically, this means that the 'line' and 'load' were reversed, i.e., it was wired incorrectly.'

or (for one receptacle only) 'While the GFCI device tripped when the 'test' button was pushed, the GFCI receptacle outlets were still 'hot' - power did not turn off. The most common cause of this is incorrect wiring. Typically, this means that the 'load' terminals were connected to the circuit conductors (instead of connecting them to the 'line' terminals.'

This not only enhances your standing with your clients (because you know the most likely cause), but with the electrician when he tells the seller, agent, buyer, whomever 'That HI was correct, that was the problem.' instead of saying 'Wonder why that HI called for me to "evaluate" it? They should have know what was wrong with it. It's just wired wrong."

But that leads me to my other rant of (take a deep breath, exhale slowly, no all caps screaming, calmly now) ... why do we, who are being paid to "evaluate" what we inspect, calling for "further evaluation"? Why can't we, HIs, simply call for what it really needs? It really "needs" to be "repaired". Thus, all we (HIs) need to say is 'Repair as needed'.

Whew, I made it through without ... WHAT ON EARTH ARE WE (HIs) DOING CALLING FOR "FURTHER EVALUATION" WHEN WE ARE BEING PAID TO "EVALUATE" IT? WHY DON'T WE JUST CALL FOR "REPAIRS"?

Dang! Almost made it through!


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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dbowers wrote:
Kevin -

If you trip a GFCI outlet and it trips but stays powered its DEFECTIVE. There could be several reasons for this - but who cares - let the electrician do his job. Write it up and move on to something else.

Dan Bowers, CRI


I agree Dan. I am an electrical inspector and I have the same responsibility. This is not working and it is not my job to say what broke, only that it is not working. The reality is, without opening the box and doing more observations or tests, it is still a guess what is wrong.