The GFCI in this bathroom is not grounded, so it won’t trip with the tester. However when I use the test button on the GFCI itself, it does trip. Would that be deficient. I’m curious because I don’t know if the GFCI is working since eita not grounded.
As long as it trips with the receptacles test button it is OK.
Were all the receptacles in the house ungrounded or just this one?
4 Likes
Sweet! Thanks! It was a mix of knob and tube and NM cable. So some were grounded and some weren’t.
To add to Davids remarks, The GFCI is functional and will protect, but if the sticker in the picture below isn’t attached I call it out as an open ground.
7 Likes
K&T goes in my reports as a major defect and if I find it installed under or behind insulation I call it out as a fire hazard.
7 Likes
I would say exactly that.
And as Kevin mentioned, K&T is old, prone to damage with potential hazards which may or may not be visible. There are mixed opinions on whether or not K&T is a defect, but I always elevate it. I recommend further evaluation for corrections, safety upgrades or full replacement as needed.
3 Likes
Which stems from the stance that a Home Inspection is based on the conditions observed at the time of the inspection, e.g. current condition (no pun intended).
2 Likes
Yeah I report on the outlets that are open grounds. And also disclose that there is knob and tube within a home and do the same that if it runs through insulation it being a fire hazard. If it’s just present, I make a note in the report but don’t call it defective. That’s just me personally though.
3 Likes
Here’s an intersting read on K&T.
2 Likes
Austin, sounds like you need a refresher on GFCI operation. The ground fault implied by the name is when YOU become the ground path in any circuit so protected. The GFCI circuitry detects this change in current flow (on the two current carrying wires) and breaks the circuit. It does not need a grounded conductor to operate but should have the sticker if that is the case. The proper test method is with the test button on the unit (which also doesn’t need a ground to operate). Your tester simply shorts to the nonexistent (in this case) ground for test operation.
GFCIs are recommended for ungrounded outlets to prevent shocks. The GFCI becomes the “circuit breaker” in these instances.
2 Likes
This article is written and reviewed by financial people who interview more financial people who have no trade experience. Evidence of this is suggested by the statement, “The lack of a ground wire is a significant fire hazard.” made by Kenneth Gregg, CEO of Orion180 Insurance Services, LLC. That is probably the least problematic aspect of fire prevention in older homes and continued with improved wiring on into the 1960’s.
I was curious. I have heard that some people don’t insure homes with knob and tube, but I haven’t had an experience like that. Have you or anyone had an experience that a home wouldn’t be insured because it had knob and tube?
That makes sense. I appreciate the refresher and helping me learn!
They don’t need trade experience. They are in the insurance industry and look at numbers, and the numbers tell them that structures with K&T wiring is a high risk to insure when compared to NM wire, and that every year that risk grows higher. Again Bob, it’s not rocket science.
1 Like
There are no statistics to prove that “The lack of a ground wire is a significant fire hazard.” Knob and Tube or otherwise. Don’t you read ALL the words?
Yes, I have Austin. From what I’ve heard from many clients is that they can still get insurance but will pay more for it, but every year more and more insurance companies are just saying no to K&T.
Whenever I’m inspecting older homes and find K&T and inform my clients, I’ve had many state that their insurance agent asked them if the house had K&T or not.
Read through a few of these.
can i insure my house with knob and tube wiring - Google Search
1 Like
Thanks Kevin for all the resources. I appreciate it!
1 Like
You’re welcome.
Having gfci receptacles or breakers on ungrounded circuits is fairly common, because it is acceptable with the NEC, and is cheaper than re- wiring the home.
But, as you discovered, the tester doesn’t work without a ground present.
Yes it is a common practice to protect an ungrounded outlet with a GFCI and is acceptable per NEC (oops referencing code), but does it provide the same level of safety as a new nm wire? Does the GFCI outlet also provide the needed protection for electronics? I see quite a few older homes and some are still limping with older nm without grounds. Is it beneficial to upgrade to newer NM?