GFCI's and reverse polarity

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1

Originally Posted By: jpope
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On my morning inspection today, my “three light outlet tester” showed reverse polarity in a GFCI outlet located in the garage. I noted this in my report and moved on.


Further into the inspection, I plugged into another GFCI outlet, pushed the test button on my tester, the GFCI tripped, I pushed the reset button on the outlet and when it powered back up, my tester showed reverse polarity ![eusa_think.gif](upload://lNFeGuTetUAtwNVgUSOuUzgrGGK.gif)

The test button on my tester would not trip the GFCI while it was indicating reverse polarity. I pushed the test button on the outlet and then reset it. It powered up and my tester showed a normal status.

I tripped it again with my tester and when it was reset, it was reversed again.

For whatever reason, every time I tripped the GFCI with my tester, the outlet would show reversed polarity when it was reset.

Needless to say, I reset the GFCI and left it alone. Perplexed, I went back to the garage GFCI and pushed the test button on the outlet. When I reset it, it show all systems normal.

Without telling me to throw away my "three light testers," can someone explain this?

--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

2

Originally Posted By: jmertins
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Jeff,


Not to make light of your ordeal, or perplex your situation but a wise old inspector(it was you) once posted on this forum "if in doubt defer to a licensed electrician" ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif) Just thought I would remind you of it.

P.S. I mean that with all sincerity..I read most of your posts and find them all very helpful and educational.

John

3

Originally Posted By: jpope
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


? icon_wink.gif

–
Jeff Pope


JPI Home Inspection Service


“At JPI, we’ll help you look better”


(661) 212-0738

4

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Jeff I do not have a clue as to an answer here.


I will not tell you to throw away your tester, I keep one in my tool bag they have a purpose.

If this happened to me I would break out the old reliable Wiggys (solenoid type tester, not a DMM).

1) H to N should be 120

2) N to G should be 0

3) H to G should trip GFCI

If 1 and 2 are correct and 3 will not cause a trip but the test button does you have no grounding means.

--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

5

Originally Posted By: phinsperger
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See Jerry’s post at;


http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/viewtopic.php?p=29883#29883

--
.


Paul Hinsperger
Hinsperger Inspection Services
Chairman - NACHI Awards Committee
Place your Award Nominations
here !

6

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Jeff,


I have come across this also, you have defective GFCI receptacles. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Joe Myers

7

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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The weekend FABI seminar I attended last weekend, a rep from Leviton, Steve Campoto, Vice President - Engineering, Personnel Protection Products was there. We’ve talked before. A couple of years ago he asked me to send him one of the ones which reset reverse polarity, so I did, a couple of years ago.


I asked him about it and he didn't remember getting it. So, if any of you have one, send me an e-mail and I'll give you my address to send it to, then I can write a note up and forward it to Steve.

Heck, if you have two, I'll send one to him and I'll take the other one apart. Which, it now seems, I should have done the last time. It is seldom that a seller will allow me to remove something like that (and I'd only ask for a reason like this, to find out why they reset reverse polarity).

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

8

Originally Posted By: jpope
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Cool, I get to keep my three light testers!! icon_biggrin.gif


Thanks for the info guys.

--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

9

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Jerry I sure would like to know how that happens. icon_confused.gif


I have learned enough not to say things can't happen.

Bob

--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

10

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Was it an older 2-wire system by any chance, and did ya check an outlet for the reverse polarity and any possible bootleg grounds (either to neutral, or maybe to the hot by mistake) by removing a cover since the bells-and-whistles were going off?

–
Robert O’Connor, PE


Eagle Engineering ?


Eagle Eye Inspections ?


NACHI Education Committee


I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
11

Originally Posted By: jpope
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, right? icon_wink.gif


I reported them as possibly defective and recommended replacement. I figured, worse case scenario, I've gotta buy four GFCI outlets . I was willing to eat that rather than report nothing and really hang my a$$ out on a limb.

--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

12

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Bob, Robert,


I'd also like to know how that happens.

I've checked with voltmeters, my Greenlee electronic wiggy, I've even made my own special three voltmeter tester (sure beats those three light testers).

I plug it in and I can read (all at the same time) H-G, H-N, N-G and know exactly what is going on where. And, yes, when they reset indicating 'reverse polarity', they really are "reverse polarity".

Steve did not know how that could happen either, hence him asking me to send him one (to bad it either never made it to his desk or he lost it).

This weekend he did tell me that there are two separate sets of contacts, on for the neutral and one for the hot, but still ... no, that just "can't" happen, except that it does on those types.

When you find one, play with the reset button. Push it in on one side and it will usually reset reverse polarity. Push it in in the center and it will usually reset properly. Yet, either way it resets, it still provides GFCI protection.

This is because the GFCI protection does not care if there is a ground, or which is hot and which is neutral, it is only sensing the difference between the hot and the neutral. Reverse polarity? Still has a difference when tested with the test button, still trips off, still provides GFCI protection.

If anybody can get their hands on one they find which reset reverse polarity, send it to me.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

13

Originally Posted By: jmyers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


I suggest that everyone carry around a GFCI receptacle, when they come across a receptacle that does the reverse polarity, they take it and replace it with the extra they are carrying! icon_biggrin.gif


Joe Myers

14

Originally Posted By: dhartke
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Jeff,


You're still not off the hook. You can keep your 3 light tester but now you have to also carry a Wiggy.


Bob,

Instead of the wiggy can we use a cheap $3.00 pigtail voltage tester to check between H and G. It would surely carry the 5ma to trip the GFCI. I'm trying to save Jeff the $20.00 Wiggy. ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)


Dave

15

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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dhartke wrote:
Bob,

Instead of the wiggy can we use a cheap $3.00 pigtail voltage tester to check between H and G. It would surely carry the 5ma to trip the GFCI. I'm trying to save Jeff the $20.00 Wiggy.


I am not sure that the neon lamp will draw the 5 ma needed to trip the GFCI, I have never tried it.

I have a bunch of expensive DMMs and Analog meters but you can not beat a Wiggy type (even better is the combination solenoid voltage and continuity tester) for basic line voltage trouble shooting.

Many times the DMMs will read the inductance from adjacent conductors, in a home this could be other NM cables run side by side, a solenoid type tester has enough 'load' to draw down the inductance.

I have read 197 volts on 'dead' conductors with a DMM, put the Wiggy on it and it shows dead. (The conductor was in a pipe with other live 277 volt circuits)

--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum
16

Originally Posted By: dhartke
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Bob,


I have a Wiggy but don't use it much anymore. I thought maybe it was outdated and underqualified for most jobs, considering the modern digital everything gadgets.

Thanks for bringing new life to it.


Dave