What happened here - GFCIs?

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1

Originally Posted By: rkuntz
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During an inspection today I tested an outside GFCI outlet with my 3-light tester. The GFCI tripped and failed to reset. The garage and another room also lost power. When I went in the garage I found that another GFCI outlet had also been tripped (one that I had not tested). So I reset it and the power to the garage and other room went back on. I checked the GFCI outlet outside and it was still not working (no power). Anybody have any ideas what happened here??

2

Originally Posted By: dvalley
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Quote:
The GFCI tripped and failed to reset.


Did this particular GFCI have the actual reset button on it? If not, there's another GFCI outlet that needs to be re-set somewhere in the house. It?s a matter of locating it.

Electricians wire these outlets in parallel to other outlets so as to protect that entire circuit with a primary GFCI.

If you can't find the re-set GFCI receptacle, check next to the SE panel. That's where I find it, when I fail locate it elsewhere.
![](upload://aWTRUraNtQ2T2bkVBw0PHLo76ZQ.gif)

--
David Valley
MAB Member

Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."
3

Originally Posted By: rkuntz
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David,


The outlet that didn't reset was a GFCI (with reset button).

I think you helped me figure out what happened. The GCFI outlet that failed was wired downstream of a GFCI below the main panel. When I tested the downstream GFCI it tripped both itself and the upstream GFCI (below panel box). Does that make sense?


Ron

4

Originally Posted By: dvalley
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But, that doesn’t explain what happened to the exterior GFCI.

–
David Valley


MAB Member


Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."
5

Originally Posted By: rkuntz
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David,


My guess is that the exterior GFCI needs to be replaced - failed during testing. I had that happen once before. What do you think?

Ron

6

Originally Posted By: dvalley
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–
David Valley


MAB Member


Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."
7

Originally Posted By: evandeven
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I just inspected a house that had four bathrooms. All of the bathrooms had G.F.I.outlets. The problem was that when the hall bathroom G.F.I. outlet was tested, the master bathroom G.F.I. would trip, not the one being tested. The downstairs bathroom was the same way, which is going to be a pain when it trips and the homeowners have to run upstairs to reset the outlet.

–
Eric Van De Ven


Owner/Inspector


Magnum Inspections Inc.


I get paid to be suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious about!


www.magnuminspections.com

8

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Some new GFCI are designed not to reset …


Remember some of those other discussions we've had, GFCI resetting reverse polarity, line / load reversed, etc.? Some of the new GFCI have a 'lock out' which does not allow the GFCI to reset if it is not wired properly or there is some other problem. If the line / load is reversed, they will not reset until the wiring is corrected, or whatever the other problem is. Sometimes, the GFCI needs to be replaced, sometimes, just correcting the wiring problem will allow the GFCI to reset.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

9

Originally Posted By: rkuntz
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Jerry,



So either way I call for an electrician and let him sort it out.


Ron

10

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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rkuntz wrote:
Jerry,


So either way I call for an electrician and let him sort it out.


Ron


Yes.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
11

Originally Posted By: dbroad
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I did a house about a month ago and the same thing happened. I found that the breaker tripped without throwing properly. I re set it and power came back on. I recomended replacing both the GFCI outlet and the $6 breaker that tripped without throwing.

12

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Not to insult anyone.


If you ever see a breaker in an off position do not turn it on. Especially if it is in a tripped position.

Make a note than breaker #12 was off.

Mike P.

13

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Jerry,


That thing with the GFCI's receptacles that are not designed to re-set when they are wired improperly, that is relatively new, correct.

What I am getting at here, is that many supply houses probably still have lots of old stock which is still being used.

Joe Myers

14

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Lots of older ones around, but major electrical supply houses go through them so fast I doubt the have the older ones.


The older ones will be in the smaller stores and places which do not have a big turn over on them.

By the way, I've been discussing the new 'lock out' GFCI with the guy at Leviton and do not like all I hear about the new GFCIs (theirs).

The old GFCIs would create an internal simulated ground fault current (bypassing the sensing coil), causing the sensing coil to 'detect a ground fault' and trip. That was the good part, the test button really tested the GFCIs ability to detect and clear a ground fault by tripping.

The bad thing about the old GFCIs was it that it would reset under various improper wiring conditions. This was not good.

The new Leviton 'lock out' GFCIs do not test the GFCIs ability to detect a ground fault and then trip and clear the ground fault. Pressing the 'Test' button MECHANICALLY trips the switch inside the GFCI, and a latch locks the switch open. That's bad (in my opinion, I want to know that the sensing mechanism can actually 'trip' the GFCI off).

Now, upon releasing the 'Test' switch, the GFCI tests the sensing circuit (with a similar internal ground fault simulation) releases the 'locked out' latch, but only if some other test also check okay. I.e., line / load reversed, reverse polarity, and other checks. That's a good thing.

Each has pluses and minuses.

I want, first and foremost, to be able to check that a ground fault will actually trip the GFCI (that the switching mechanism does not get stuck closed). To me, this is foremost for safety, being able to verify it actually trips under fault conditions. The old ones did this, the new Leviton does not.

Second, I want it to not reset if there is a wiring problem. That, to me, is a secondary safety aspect. The old ones did not do this, the new Leviton does.

To those who have for so long said "The 'Test' button only mechanically trips the GFCI switch." are, for Leviton GFCIs, finally now correct.

The new GFCIs can still be remotely tested with GFCI testers, except that there is no longer any way to test for tripping off when installed on two-wire ungrounded circuits.

So to keep harping on this, but - to me - being able to actually test the ground fault tripping ability should come first.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

15

Originally Posted By: Vince Santos
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I think I have figured it out but…


Today I, for some strange reason, stuck a GFCI tester in a non GFCI outlet and pressed the test button. This tripped the outlet and caused three other outlets to stop working. I checked the panel and the circuit was not tripped and there is no GFCI receptacle connected to the outlets that I can see. There is no power to four outlets in the kitchen after this. I'm thinking that there may be a GFCI receptacle elsewhere in the home that is controlling these switches but I can't locate it. Perhaps it's in the wall??

Can testing non GFCI outlets with a GFCI tester cause damage?

Thanks

Vince

--
Desire is half of life, indifference is half of death.
--Kahlil Gibran

16

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Vince Santos wrote:
Can testing non GFCI outlets with a GFCI tester cause damage?


Only to your GFCI tester if those receptacle outlets are reverse polarity.

Testing any receptacle which is not properly wired (reverse polarity, hot neutral reversed, etc.) may damage your GFCI tester.

Will it damage the non-GFCI receptacles? No.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
17

Originally Posted By: dvalley
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Vince,


The outlet you tested that tripped was definitely wired into a GFCI controlled outlet somewhere. Did you check the garage, basement, lower bathroom, etc? If the outlet tripped(along with four others), then there is definitely a controllable GFCI that?ll reset those others, somewhere in the house.
I recall one house where I looked high over hell water to find the reset GFCI that I had tripped and about twenty minutes later I finally located it in the basement behind a metal shelf that was blocking it.
I will not leave any house until that GFCI reset is located.
You obviously left the house without resetting. Did you have the Realtor notify the Sellers of this mishap?

--
David Valley
MAB Member

Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."

18

Originally Posted By: Vince Santos
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Actually the inspection was done for the current owner of the house. I told him that the outlets have got to be on a GFCI somewhere in the house. The builder is coming out next week for an annual checkup of the home. I told him to ask the builder where the receptacle is located.


This was a first for me as far as doing an inspection for a home owner who is not selling the house. He said he wanted an independent inspection done to compare it with the one the builder is doing next week. Ever hear of anything like that??

I am going back the the house today, as it's about five miles from my home, to deliver the report. I plan to mention to him once again about locating the GFCI, perhaps he will allow me in the house to find it. It will drive me crazy if I don't find out where it is.

--
Desire is half of life, indifference is half of death.
--Kahlil Gibran

19

Originally Posted By: dharris
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Quote:
He said he wanted an independent inspection done to compare it with the one the builder is doing next week. Ever hear of anything like that??


Yes I do apx 20-25 a month, All the builders reps do here is look for dings on dry wall and stucco and puts 100s pieces of blue tape to impress the customer

Quote:
I plan to mention to him once again about locating the GFCI, perhaps he will allow me in the house to find it. It will drive me crazy if I don't find out where it is.
[/quote]

If this is a new home the gfci outlet /with push button breaker should be in the kitchen, additionally 2 circuits are required here in kitchen, in addition to the seperate DW, GD,and preferlly ref and micro circuits
20

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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Jerry the 2002 version of GFCIs still test the same circuitry as they always did. It is just tested before it will reset instead of testing to trip.


The advantage to this is if it is bad and you test it it is now out of service. The old style could have the detection circuit totally dead but still “working”.


Did you ever see the IAEI report from central Florida electrical inspectors who were spot checking GFCIs on old work inspections?


The number that failed to trip on a test approached half, with the panel breaker type being worse than the receptacle.


I am trying to track down the magazine with the article for one of my inspector buddies. If I find it I will link a PDF here too.