HI Licensing - Another Perspective

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1

Originally Posted By: jburkeson
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A Man With A Plan This is an excellent explanation of the pitfalls involved with HI licensing and should be required reading for all legislators.

–
Joseph Burkeson, RPI (Hooperette)


?Anyone who has proclaimed violence his method inexorably must choose lying as his principle.?
~ Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
2

Originally Posted By: dedwards
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Joseph,


Excellent illustration. Thanks

3

Originally Posted By: Brian A. Goodman
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It’s an interesting read, but I think it goes very light on the realities of the “market system” as a control. I doubt if there’s anyone here who can’t name one (or more) lousy / unqualified / unethical HI’s in their area that continues on year after year, seemingly without any significant problems. If we’re waiting on the BBB or the local news to put a stop to them, I think we’re in for a long wait. Does anyone personally know of either one ever happening?


I daresay the main cause of premature HI business fold-up has long been heavy lawsuits, which brings me to another point not mentioned. With no regulating body anyone who wants justice for an incompetent or fraudulent inspection has no recourse, except to hire a lawyer and file suit. If it were a person of modest means (poor), how would they proceed if they couldn't find one who would take it on contingency? And in either case, who's going to come out best in the end? The lawyers. Is there no cost to the public there? At least if you have a governing body a poor man has a chance. He can file a complaint with the board and get a hearing, at little or no cost. If a pattern becomes clear the board can pull the license.

Along those same lines there's also the simple matter that if a state passes a decent SOP and COE into law, the kind of bottom-dwellers that make the rest of us look bad have to choose between stepping it up or operating outside the law. I think the value of making what these people do illegal is immense. I like the idea that they have to keep a little worry light on in the backs of their minds all of the time. Will some one file a complaint today? Will the state show up at my office and start going through my files, see what I've been doing to clients? It could. Honest HI's don't have that problem.

I won't bore you with the downside of not requiring any training or CE, I'm sure you all know.

My philosophy on this subject in a nutshell:

A good law is better than no law.
A bad law is worse than no law.

4

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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One flaw to your logic. Many inspectors who ae unqualified, or have damaged clients, or who simply do not care, may indeed be grandfathered into the business. Then, they hold the cards.


Look at the "model legislation" proposed by other orgs. Look at NJ's infamous bill, which another org still rates as the best in the country.

Licensing is a noble thought, but in many cases creates worse situations, barring those otherwise qualified from entering the profession.

As to your analogy, as soon as the laws are written which make t easier to bar incompetent or unqualified physicians from practicing medicine, maybe then the public should concentrate on weeding out others unqualified in their respective professions. I can think of electricians and plumbers who are walking lawsuits. The laws which exist do nothing to protect the public, as most licensing boards resemble the old boys network.

Start there...

--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

5

Originally Posted By: Brian A. Goodman
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One flaw to your logic. Many inspectors who ae unqualified, or have damaged clients, or who simply do not care, may indeed be grandfathered into the business. Then, they hold the cards.


I agree with you there Joe. Grandfathering is manure. Give everyone a chance to meet the requirements, then chop off everyone who doesn't, no exceptions.

Look at the "model legislation" proposed by other orgs. Look at NJ's infamous bill, which another org still rates as the best in the country.

I haven't seen anyone's model legislation I could entirely agree with myself, including that of my outfit. The NJ law is an embarrassment in my book. If we had a law like that here Im sure I'd be a lot more cynical about the whole idea.

Licensing is a noble thought, but in many cases creates worse situations, barring those otherwise qualified from entering the profession.

That can and does happen, true. It all depends on the law you get; see "my philosophy in a nutshell" on that one.

As to your analogy, as soon as the laws are written which make t easier to bar incompetent or unqualified physicians from practicing medicine, maybe then the public should concentrate on weeding out others unqualified in their respective professions. I can think of electricians and plumbers who are walking lawsuits. The laws which exist do nothing to protect the public, as most licensing boards resemble the old boys network.

Unfortunately some of those professions do tend to work to protect their own rather than the public. I can only say they are an example of what not to do if you want the trust of the people, and hope that any HI's on state boards will not cottle incompetent or fraudlent inspectors that way. I hope our profession won't fail to do things right because others already have. I know it can't be perfect, but I think it could be pretty good.

Good to hear from you again Joe, where've you been?

6

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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jfarsetta wrote:
One flaw to your logic. Many inspectors who ae unqualified, or have damaged clients, or who simply do not care, may indeed be grandfathered into the business.


With legislation, you need to keep the long term view in perspective and in sight, and not be short sighted by the short term view.

For example: When contractors were licensed in Florida in 1971-72, EVERYONE holding an occupational license as a contractor was grandfathered in as that type of contractor.

People going out of business, dying, retiring, attrition in general has a self-limiting effect of the longevity of those.

Within 5 years, there were likely few of them left, within 10 years, even fewer were left in business. Now, 35 years later, the 'young people' who got an occupational license as a contractor - and managed to keep it - are now retiring. The 'problem' cures itself. That is what I keep trying to explain to people, licensing is for the long term.

It takes a few years to get up and going and be implemented, then a few more years to get the bugs worked out of it, then a few more years to have much effect, and by then about 10 years has past. How many scuzballs who come in under grandfathering will still be around in 10 years? Answer: Not very many. If they are that bad, they will be sued out of existence and / or be disciplined by the licensing board and had their licensed suspended or revoked.

--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
7

Originally Posted By: Jeffrey A Remas
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I contacted the author of the above mentioned article. He used the HI business as an example because he has a friend who is a home inspector. As everyone knows, it does not make complete sense for the HI profession.


One of the flaws of having the market control the HI's is that the stakes are too high when there is a screw up. Would you want your doctors eliminated by the market? I would think not. There needs to be a minimum requirement for the profession to be a profession. If you don't make the cut then too bad for you. Either try harder or find something else to do for a living.

The article does make sense but remember it is fiction used as an example to make a specific point. It willl not apply to all industries.

Jeff Remas
REMAS Inspections, Inc.

8

Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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With the exception of Texas, there exists no state that adopted home inspection licensing (BARE minimum standard) where my Aunt Penny couldn’t get licensed.


---My Aunt Penny can sleep through continuing education classes.

---My Aunt Penny can pass the ridiculously easy to begin with NHIE with it's now 68% pass rate, answers sold on e-Bay for $15, and only 2 versions drawn from the same dumb pool of questions.

---My Aunt Penny can fill out a license application and write a check to the state.



Bare minimum standard licensing hurts consumers in that it gives them a false sense of security (they think if someone's licensed, they're qualified, huh ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ).

I sure wouldn't hire my Aunt Penny to inspect a house. I'm writing an article which will tell consumers (and REALTORs) how to find a good home inspector (provided they want to do a little ground work).

The article will run in the next edition of Real Property Times.

--
Nick Gromicko
Founder
dues=79cents/day.

I much prefer email to private messages.

9

Originally Posted By: Brian A. Goodman
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[quote=“gromicko”]With the exception of Texas, there exists no state that adopted home inspection licensing (BARE minimum standard) where my Aunt Penny couldn’t get licensed.


---My Aunt Penny can sleep through continuing education classes.

If CE is so worthless why do virtually all of the other respected professions have it? Arguing against CE is crazy. You may have seen a lot of realtors sleep through it, but I've never seen an HI do it. Has anyone here ever seen an HI sleep through a class? It's certainly possible and undoubtedly has happened, but I daresay it's pretty rare.

---My Aunt Penny can pass the ridiculously easy to begin with NHIE with it's now 68% pass rate. answers sold on e-Bay for $15, and only 2 versions drawn from the same dumb pool of questions.

How much would you care to bet on that? If she's not already knowledgeable and / or doesn't get a ton of prep, she won't pass the NHIE. You keep saying the answers are for sale on eBay...post a link to that, if you don't mind. If you're saying a shrewd, dishonest person could probably cheat and chisel his way through you may be right, but if it ever came to light he'd be done.

Can you name for me any law that guarantees total compliance with itself? Does that mean we shouldn't have any laws on the books? No.

---My Aunt Penny can fill out a license application and write a check to the state.

Yes, anyone can do those things. Big deal.

Bare minimum standard licensing hurts consumers in that it gives them a false sense of security (they think if someone's licensed, they're qualified, huh.

Everything depends on the law you get. A good law with reasonably high standards makes it much harder for an incompetent person to enter the field. Not impossible, but harder.

I sure wouldn't hire my Aunt Penny to inspect a house. I'm writing an article which will tell consumers (and REALTORs) how to find a good home inspector (provided they want to do a little ground work).

The article will run in the next edition of Real Property Times.

It would be nice if the public knew even enough to ask the right questions, no matter who they were calling or how they found them. Unfortunately the most common question is "How much?" instead of "Why should I hire you over the next guy?".

10

Originally Posted By: Jeffrey A Remas
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In mid 2003 I bought the test questions to the NHIE on ebay. Not one question was the same and they did not help me one bit. I relied on studying the material that the NHIE offers.


I won't say much more than that so I don't get banned again.

11

Originally Posted By: Brian A. Goodman
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I bought a camera battery on eBay. The ad page said it was a Sony brand battery, made in Japan. When it came it was a generic knock-off made in China.


My offer to sell anyone a guaranteed lottery number still stands too. Please send $5,000 to my address, and I'll get it right out to you. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

12

Originally Posted By: jburkeson
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Deleted… icon_biggrin.gif

–
Joseph Burkeson, RPI (Hooperette)


?Anyone who has proclaimed violence his method inexorably must choose lying as his principle.?
~ Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
13

Originally Posted By: Brian A. Goodman
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I don’t know a thing about the Florida law Joe, but I hope it doesn’t resemble the one in NJ. Best of luck, I hope you get something sensible in the end.

14

Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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A long time ago when PA offered grandfathering of certain commercial driver’s licenses provided you could pass the written exams, I signed up for all of them (they were cheap). I wrote for and received a book to help me pass them all. I passed every one except some nuclear waste hazmat license of some sort.


With my CDL I could then get insurance and legally climb into a huge rig full of propane tanks and drive down the turnpike. This despite never have driven anything bigger than a 10 ton dump.

One may ask how can a fella like me get a CDL and how can Aunt Penny (or worse... a newbie who's never done an inspection) pass the NHIE? The answer is simple... The questions asked on these exams are well known and their answers are too. Any good exam taker who prepares properly can pass almost any exam. http://www.nachi.org/qa.htm pretty much made licensing exams meaningless.

10-4 good buddy, keep the shiny side up and the greasy side down.

--
Nick Gromicko
Founder
dues=79cents/day.

I much prefer email to private messages.

15

Originally Posted By: Brian A. Goodman
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[quote=“gromicko”]


Any good exam taker who prepares properly can pass almost any exam.

Well of course that's true, but that's not what you said. The whole point of having an exam is to make applicants prepare properly. Duh!

http://www.nachi.org/qa.htm pretty much made licensing exams meaningless.

Uh-huh. Whatever you say Nick.
Aren't you the guy who was posting a week or two ago about how licensing was great for NACHI and only NACHI? You remember, "selective bombadiers" and all that stuff.

16

Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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Anyway, here is how I see it:


Licensing generally hurts the consumer in 2 ways:

1. Licensing hurts the consumer because the standard to get a license is so low that anyone (even Aunt Penny) can be a licensed inspector.

2. Licensing hurts the consumer in that it provides a false sense of security misleading them into thinking a licensed inspector (even Aunt Penny) is somehow a good inspector and so the consumer is often less apt to do any homework on their own.

Licensing generally hurts the existing inspector and helps the newbie:

1. Licensing hurts the existing inspector (often a NACHI member) who has his own developed market share because now Aunt Penny can come in and compete claiming "I'm as licensed as he is."

2. Licensing helps the newbie because it creates a new standard that they can meet easily. The old standard (free market) is too tough generally.

Licensing helps NACHI:

1. Licensing helps NACHI (sort of) as an organization (if you are only looking at NACHI as a trade association) because everywhere licensing is adopted the amount of inspectors roughly triples. Surprise, surprise!

2. Licensing also helps NACHI (sort of) as an organization (if you are only looking at NACHI as a trade association) because it captures our weaker markets for us and draws into NACHI all the smart inspectors. Licensing wipes out any existing market strong holds and sets everyone back to square one. Once everyone is back to square one, NACHI then (admittedly) exploits it's marketing strengths to give it's members an unfair advantage. Everywhere licensing is adopted, after about a year or so, inspectors realize that just being licensed isn't getting them any business and that state governments do no marketing whatsoever and that NACHI members have some business success tools that a mere license on the wall doesn't provide (see the huge number of out-of-business, once-licensed inspectors on the TREC site... and they had to do hundreds of hours of continuing ed!)... and so the smartest, licensed inspectors... realizing that NACHI membership is worth much more than 79 cents/day...join NACHI. The rest slowly starve. NACHI ends up with all the licensed, smart inspectors (see all the TREC#'s in http://www.nachi.org/memberlist/featured/all.htm ...download time 45 seconds). It is a form of Darwinism in that NACHI ends up with all the smart, licensed inspectors. Bigger in number (see #1 above), better in bloodline. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)



I'm not saying I like or dislike what I've written above... I'm only saying that I believe it to be true.

--
Nick Gromicko
Founder
dues=79cents/day.

I much prefer email to private messages.

17

Originally Posted By: Brian A. Goodman
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[quote=“gromicko”]Brian, again… you assume (incorrectly again) that if I argue something is true or exists… that I support it. It is clear from your responses that you have difficulty clearing your thinking of this "Brian think."


I assumed that since you said licensing was great for NACHI and only NACHI that you would be in favor of it. Sure seemed like a logical leap, but do pardon me if I erred.

Licensing generally hurts the consumer in 2 ways:

1. Licensing hurts the consumer because the standard to get a license is so low that anyone (even Aunt Penny) can be a licensed inspector.

That all depends on where you're talking about Nick. The variation between requirements from one state to another can be huge. Can Aunt Penny get a license in NJ? I think not. In some other places, maybe so. That's a good reason to improve the law, not abandon it.

2. Licensing hurts the consumer in that it provides a false sense of security misleading them into thinking a licensed inspector (even Aunt Penny) is somehow a good inspector and so the consumer is often less apt to do any homework on their own.

Some people are apt to do homework and some are not. I question whether the presence or absence of a license law has any affect on that. And for the 47th time, it all depends on what the law says. You keep speaking as if they were all alike. They are not. Your members know that. A law with high standards will make it very hard for an incompetent HI to clear the bar.

Licensing generally hurts the existing inspector and helps the newbie:

1. Licensing hurts the existing inspector (often a NACHI member) who has his own developed market share because now Aunt Penny can come in and compete claiming "I'm as licensed as he is."

Huh? Now licensing hurts NACHI members? Shall I go back and do a cut & paste on your recent hype I just mentioned in my last post? What happened to the selective bombadiers? Come on Nick, make up your mind.

And exactly what was stopping Aunt Penny before licensing came in? She could have claimed "I'm as unlicensed as he is."

2. Licensing helps the newbie because it creates a new standard that they can meet easily. The old standard (free market) is too tough generally.

*sigh* It all depends on the law. It all depends on the law. It all depends on the law. And what's hard about breaking into a market where no standards are required?

Licensing helps NACHI:

1. Licensing helps NACHI (sort of) as an organization (if you are only looking at NACHI as a trade association) because everywhere licensing is adopted the amount of inspectors roughly triples. Surprise, surprise!

*sigh* It all depends on the law. It all depends on the law. It all depends on the law. The number went WAY down in my state. How soon do you think it'll triple in NJ?


2. Licensing also helps NACHI (sort of) as an organization (if you are only looking at NACHI as a trade association) because it captures our weaker markets for us and draws into NACHI all the smart inspectors.

Hype.

[i] Licensing wipes out any existing market strong holds and sets everyone back to square one.

It does? How the hell does it do that? Suddenly no one has a client base? Or a reputation? Or relationships with other RE professionals? Where do all of those things go?

Once everyone is back to square one, NACHI then (admittedly) exploits it's marketing strengths to give it's members an unfair advantage. Everywhere licensing is adopted, after about a year or so, inspectors realize that just being licensed isn't getting them any business and that state governments do no marketing whatsoever and that NACHI members have some business success tools that a mere license on the wall doesn't provide (see the huge number of out-of-business, once-licensed inspectors on the TREC site... and they had to do hundreds of hours of continuing ed!)... and so the smartest, licensed inspectors... realizing that NACHI membership is worth much more than 79 cents/day...join NACHI.

Dang Nick, if you're running out of periods I'll loan you some of mine. Here's another one of your recurring themes that I can get no sense out of at all..."States do no marketing". Who ever said they did, or should? Why would anyone expect that? If a person doesn't know something as obvious as that before coming in, I don't think you can save them.


The rest slowly starve. It is a form of Darwinism in that NACHI ends up with all the smart, licensed inspectors.

Hype.

I'm not saying I like or dislike what I've written above... I'm only saying that I believe it to be true.

Oh, I think your leanings are plain enough. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but you have some strange logic to base it on.

18

Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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There are three hurdles one must clear to be a home inspector in a regulated state. A trade association (like NACHI) has a duty to help its members with all three but bares SOLE duty to help members with the third.


The first hurdle is about 6 inches tall. That being meeting the minimum standards required and filling out some paperwork that all your competitors must do as well. It is an easy hurdle (except perhaps where some corrupt indentured servitude is still alive and well... very rare anymore lately).

The second hurdle is about 24 inches tall. That being acquiring the skill set and knowledge base needed to be competent. This is a harder hurdle, but certainly attainable with some effort.

The last hurdle is about 10 feet tall. That being to grab market share and make money. This hurdle is the one most inspectors fail to clear. TREC, for example, has thousands of out-of-business inspectors who have cleared the first two hurdles, spent hundreds of hours in continuing education classes, passed exams, got licensed and then... failing to join NACHI.... failed to clear the last hurdle.

What good to a consumer is the best, fully trained, fully licensed inspector in the world... if his phone is disconnected?

--
Nick Gromicko
Founder
dues=79cents/day.

I much prefer email to private messages.

19

Originally Posted By: Brian A. Goodman
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[quote=“gromicko”]There are three hurdles one must clear to be a home inspector in a regulated state. A trade association (like NACHI) has a duty to help its members with all three but bares SOLE duty to help members with the third.


The first hurdle is about 6 inches tall. That being meeting the minimum standards required and filling out some paperwork that all your competitors must do as well. It is an easy hurdle (except perhaps where some corrupt indentured servitude is still alive and well... very rare anymore lately).

Does that include the NHIE? I wouldn't advise anyone without significant HI knowledge to approach it as if it were a 6 inch hurdle. Not smart. If it happens to be a state where E & O is required, I wouldn't call that a 6 inch hurdle either. Maybe for a well-heeled fellow like yourself, but a lot of us grunts can't toss out 3 - 4 thousand at the drop of a hat.

The second hurdle is about 24 inches tall. That being acquiring the skill set and knowledge base needed to be competent. This is a harder hurdle, but certainly attainable with some effort.

If this happened to be a state with a minimum training hours requirement, you might have to cough up another 2 - 3 thousand to clear this one. Hey, nothing to it!

The last hurdle is about 10 feet tall. That being to grab market share and make money. This hurdle is the one most inspectors fail to clear.

And this is different from unlicensed states how....?

TREC, for example, has thousands of out-of-business inspectors who have cleared the first two hurdles, spent hundreds of hours in continuing education classes, passed exams, got licensed and then... failing to join NACHI.... failed to clear the last hurdle.

Thousands? Thousands? Wow. How many "thousands", exactly? As to that last part...

"Tis the season to be hyping, fa-la-la-la-lah, la-la-la-lah."

What good to a consumer is the best, fully trained, fully licensed inspector in the world... if his phone is disconnected?

No good at all, but there's more than one way to skin that cat. And this is different from unlicensed states how?

20

Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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in TX.


Anyway, here are the two myths:

1. Veteran inspectors in states without licensing often incorrectly think that licensing will keep newbies out.

2. Newbie home inspectors in states with licensing often incorrectly think that if they get a license their phone will magically ring without NACHI.


Both are mistaken.

--
Nick Gromicko
Founder
dues=79cents/day.

I much prefer email to private messages.