Hey guys, i know this is blending categories a bit, but these AFCIs are reading 20° hotter than the rest of the breakers. Is that above average?
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Was there ANY Load on the circuits in question? Load equals Heat.
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AFCI and GFCI will always run hotter as they are drawing current (Load) for their functionality,
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The AFCI breakers have active circuitry inside…so they emit heat.
The smoke alarms in the house emit heat
The GFCI receptacles emit heat
The doorbell transformer emit heat
Basically anything with active electricity running through it will emit heat and show up on thermal.
I literally just searched for “afci breaker temperature” in google and this was the first result.
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Imagine that…
Self-research tends to be more memorable and leads to a much more thorough understanding of the topic at hand also.
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Thanks for the feedback Yu, appreciate your time and response. I was on site and thought I’d throw this question out there real quick because I was so busy doing multiple things. I’ll take a look at that linked post
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^^^
“I was on site and thought I’d throw this question out there real quick because I was so busy doing multiple things.”
Condescending comments are not necessarily free of ignorance either, not to mention they may discourage learning. Just something to think about. I am thankful for this forum, especially for the interaction with fellow inspectors who know more than me and add helpful insights. Plus, it’s always helpful to get additional comments regarding defects in a picture I may not have noticed by other guys on here. My apologies for unnecessary post(s).
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20 degrees above ambient air is perfectly normal.
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On the other hand…this was a fair question. Most inspectors do their own research or call someone they think may have the answer, and don’t even know about this forum, much less ever post about it. Questions like this on the forum are learning opportunities for many, maybe all of us.
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So true. It’s a great source for learning and educating oneself. I’d rather look a little foolish here by asking a bad or repetitive question and have the client of the home inspection be more informed and safe.
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Yes, I agree. My primary point was that the manufacturers post this data on the web and it’s (nearly) instantly available with basic research.
It wasn’t about repetitive questions or looking foolish, but simply trying to figure things out on your own to the best you can.
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If you are going to use IR, it is best to know what you’re taking a scan of. Some things are supposed to be warmer than ambient. A thermal camera does not tell you what is going on, why it is hot, etc. it’s your job to know these things when you use the technology. This comes from training and experience. You have to start someplace however, right?
What is too hot, is not a specific temperature. You need to determine the source of the heat with reference to the scan, adjust your camera properly, determine temperature reflect, and determine the method of heat transfer (conduction, convection, radiation, or a combination of). What you’re asking about is an indirect measurement. Meaning that the source of the heat is behind the surface. You may have a 7,000 degree electrical arc, but by the time it makes it 4" through a breaker it may be only 100F.
Well, these replies happen a lot around here for good reason.
You came here for a quick answer, because you were too busy.
Aren’t we all? 
If you don’t do your due diligence before coming here, you can’t even ask a question properly. SO it is a good practice to do your own initial research so you get an answer vs. an opinion. I spend hours on the phone with inspectors who call. I don’t mind that at all, but a question you can push one button on your phone, verbally ask your question and get an immediate answer is not? Well, that’s a no-go.
Yea, but no.
Like in this thread, a question is asked. Then someone has to post a bunch of questions because of insufficient information to answer a simple question. The OP disappears leaving people willing to help hanging.
Yes, this site is a wealth of information and experience, but we don’t need to be lazy and ask others to do their job for them… We also deserve a little respect concerning this matter.
This is 100% applicable! You learn more about your question by doing your own research and all the stuff that goes along with it.
Actually, based upon your question, none of that thermal stuff should ever be in your report!
Those of us that started using thermal imaging back in the day when they first hit the market for the general public (for $5k for one of the two cameras on the market) used the IR as a glorified flashlight. We saw stuff that didn’t look right, put the IR camera away and “Investigated Further” using methods we had been using long before TI came out. We also took weeks out of our inspection schedule and thousands of dollars to attend training to do it right. I know, because I sat in class with them. Thirteen of us here got together and took an Architect Flat Roof course in Indianapolis to learn about the roofs we were pointing our thermal equipment at. It took years to progress in this industry to do what I do today (for $500/hr).
We all started out knowing nothing. Been there, done that. Insurance providers would not insure us for IR work. Those here saying there is no there, there teaches you nothing. You don’t need to be calling people condescending who actually showed up to answer your question.
Again, I recommend you use that thermal camera as a glorified flashlight to see things you would have missed otherwise until you know how hot is too hot, and that Blue is not moisture. When you see something in the ceiling, climb back up in the attic and see what it is. If you can’t see it or otherwise test it, don’t talk about it yet.
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Last year my house got hit by lightning and started an attic fire. The lightning hit the lower ridge of the roof (over the master), blew out trusses, energized the ductwork & arc’d with nearby wires, and finally came down through an AC vent in our master and melted the carpet at the base of our bed. I saw, experimented, and learned a lot based on what I saw. There’s a lot more to the story but several people have already pointed out the importance of having a good base of knowledge on electrical/thermal topics. The regular c/b’s with normal loads (no more than 80% load; ie. 12 AMPS for 15 AMP c/b) should operate with temps near ambient. AFCI’s can run up to 20 degrees above ambient (according to Square D in my case). With ambient around 96 degrees, 124.3 (see pic) was hotter than it should be for an AFCI. When I looked more closely I saw a burn residue on the breaker (see pic). When I walked the wire in the attic I found an exposed (and live) wire buried in the insulation (obviously recommend using gloves). When I turned on a portable AC (12 AMP) unit in our operating home office (15 AMP), I blew the breaker. I took the thermal pic as the temp was coming down from over 150 degrees.
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Typical thermal image of a box.
I pretty much only look for excessive when I do a thermal image, more so than the numeric values although it is about 20 degrees.
If 5 of them are yellow and one might be bright white(for example) then I would investigate further.
Pretty much every panel that has AFCI/GFCI breakers looks this way. Here’s an example from a recent inspection.
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It took years to progress in this industry to do what I do today (for $500/hr)…we also deserve a little respect concerning this matter.
Ah, okay, this sort of response explains your short essay lecture now. Just saying
You don’t need to be calling people condescending who actually showed up to answer your question.
Hmm, so from your perspective, you can be condescending, just not call people condescending; intersting. Btw, I didn’t call someone condescending, I called a comment condescending. Tisk tisk, I would of expected a little more attention to detail from a decorated gentleman like yourself.
I don’t mind that at all, but a question you can push one button on your phone, verbally ask your question and get an immediate answer is not? Well, that’s a no-go.
Who said you have to answer the question?
You came here for a quick answer, because you were too busy.
Aren’t we all?
Not to busy to write a short essay I see. It would of taken 1/60th of the time to just respond to the OP rather than this short lecture. Is it possible you assume to much?
The OP disappears leaving people willing to help hanging.
lol what? Where did I go? I shall be renamed Casper from hence forth.
we don’t need to be lazy and ask others to do their job for them
Asking questions is lazy? I would think not asking questions is lazy. Just put it in the report and don’t care to ask seasoned professionals their expertise.
Actually, based upon your question, none of that thermal stuff should ever be in your report!
Who said this was going in a report?
Insurance providers would not insure us for IR work.
Great answer to a question no one asked
You don’t need to be calling people condescending who actually showed up to answer your question.
We use to call these kinda people trolls. I’ll remember this concept the next time I go to some live performance and start booing. I mean, hey, why would you blame someone for booing the performance who showed up to the show." Gotta say, do better.
You may have a 7,000 degree electrical arc, but by the time it makes it 4" through a breaker it may be only 100F.
This was actually a helpful contribution to the discussion. Thank you my good man.
As inspectors, we can take a lot of heat from clients, agents, etc. It would be nice to come to place where we are on the same team and have a community where we are all striving to make each other better, not tear each other down, even if it was reasonable to do so.
Having said all that, the lady doth protest too much, methinks
Good day sir
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@dhorton2 Yeah, thats what I was thinking too. I came across the InterNACHI advanced electrical course just prior to this post and the instructor said he was looking for a 15° or 20° difference at the breakers. I had always assumed a 20° difference was a normal reading, so it threw me off a bit. I think now he was only reffering to your standard breaker, not AFCI? I also am working through the infrared class on Internachi and he had so much good info that it made me second guess some of the things I thought I knew ha.
The regular c/b’s with normal loads (no more than 80% load; ie. 12 AMPS for 15 AMP c/b) should operate with temps near ambient. AFCI’s can run up to 20 degrees above ambient (according to Square D in my case). With ambient around 96 degrees, 124.3 (see pic) was hotter than it should be for an AFCI. When I looked more closely I saw a burn residue on the breaker (see pic). When I walked the wire in the attic I found an exposed (and live) wire buried in the insulation (obviously recommend using gloves). When I turned on a portable AC (12 AMP) unit in our operating home office (15 AMP), I blew the breaker. I took the thermal pic as the temp was coming down from over 15 degrees.
This is exactly why I like posting on here, such an interesting read to learn from. Thank you for the time it took to put this together. I can’t believe it melted your carpets. Where you guys in the house when lightening struck?
I pretty much only look for excessive when I do a thermal image, more so than the numeric values although it is about 20 degrees… If 5 of them are yellow and one might be bright white(for example) then I would investigate further.
Good to know Mark. I’ll remember that for the future. thanks for the picture. Looks like we share the same TC. How do you like it?
Yes, I agree. My primary point was that the manufacturers post this data on the web and it’s (nearly) instantly available with basic research.
It wasn’t about repetitive questions or looking foolish, but simply trying to figure things out on your own to the best you can.
Fair enough. Seems like reasonable criticism. I’m newer to the forum and have enjoyed all your guys responses so much I guess I have an itchy trigger finger now lol.
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Do we have the same? Yours looks like a little different? Mine is HikMicro Pocket 2.
For what I do with it, it is great for what it is. I don’t charge for thermal imaging, but I use it, as was mentioned, as a glorified flashlight. I do include those pictures because they are visual evidence that I’m looking. No, I don’t have to prove it to anyone, but it shows due diligence. I may include 2 to maybe 7 thermal images in a report. Electrical panel and undersink plumbing with the hots turned on. “No leaks seen on thermal”. If I do see something, I have two moisture meters and both had better show a reading before I call something wet or leaking.
I.e. I use it to point me in the right direction.
I pretty much only use it for delta. I want to see differences in the materials that help me to understand that something needs investigation.
What I don’t use it for is when I’m measuring faucet temperature. Yes, it will give me a reading. No, that reading isn’t reliable enough. I have a Traceable with a probe that I can hold right at the top at the aerator.
That seems to be the agreed upon standard for circuit breakers with very little load and the electronics within the AFCI’s generating the heat. What is the standard temperature rise for when the breaker is fully loaded?
I know you directed this at Daniel.
I’m going to just chime in with my experience. I would have to hunt for some inspection pictures, but some of the thermal images I took of panels on super hot FL July days showed the HVAC condenser breakers were not quite as hot at the AFCI/GFCI breakers. Suggesting to me that they would fall under that 20 degree lift in temp by a degree or two.
Is that fully loaded? I don’t know. The condensers were often running full out continuously(or mostly so) from 10am to 6pm. I’m only ever looking for anomalies and a non-afci/gfci running a heat pump condenser in July is probably going to have some energy running through it, so I expect it to be warm.
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Good question. But I would probably refer to your experience for that 
I check every panel with a thermal, and I rarely ever see any breaker higher than 20 degrees. I can only remember one time that I had to call it out, when I saw a main disconnect that was 550 degrees… Electrician came and changed it immediately.
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