Licensing - Pros & Cons

Originally Posted By: clawrenson
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I am interested in conducting a personal independent poll here to see if you support or would not support licensing. Equally your views on this subject.


I respect all opinions, and thank you for your time and comments in advance. This information may be used in a research report I am conducting for education purposes- with the authors names withheld.

Regards, Claude Lawrenson


--
Ontario Home Inspections Inc.

Originally Posted By: jbushart
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Licensing has not proven to be an effective means of protecting consumers or ensuring qualified inspectors.


a. A New Jersey inspector botches a job for a State Senator’s secretary causing tens of thousands of dollars in damage. Her boss pushes the toughest legislation known, at the time, and gets it passed. Among the very first inspectors to be licensed under the new law is the very inspector who botched the job initiating the whole mess.


b. Massachusetts passes a licensing bill that highlights the actions of one inspector who is constantly sued for fraudulent business practice. The law passes and a board is established to oversee Massachusetts home inspectors. The first president of that board is the man whose shoddy business practices is what brings the law about.


c. Texas has a pretty tough law which is regulated by the Real Estate Commission which has chosen to be tough on home inspectors and easy on home builders. It is no accident that the headquarters for “Homeowners Against Deficient Dwellings”, a national organization that is fighting for tougher accountability for contractors, has its headquarters in Texas. Politics, as usual.


While ASHI opposes licensing (it would prefer that people rely upon its so-called assurances of quality than a licensing board) it fights to seek that laws that do pass match their standards, for when the laws do not, they have a difficult time recruiting people. Why is that? Is it because when one becomes licensed in a state, the incentive is then lost to improve or to exceed the minimum basic standard? Possibly.

Read through the message board at debates on qualifications and count the number of times you read "It doesn't matter much to me. I'm in a licensing state."

When the market drives the need to compete for skills and credentials, those seeking a greater share will often try to acquire as many as possible. When the state sets "minimum basic standards", many will meet them and stop, with the exception of what CEUs are necessary to maintain a license (when required).

More examples of this are happening as we speak. Why? Because the catalyst behind licensing laws is NOT the consumer but certain factions within the home inspection industry who feel that licensing will help to limit competition and neutralize the differences between inspectors who can market themselves and those who cannot.


--
Home Inspection Services of Missouri
www.missourihomeinspection.com

"We're NACHI. Get over it."

www.monachi.org

Originally Posted By: dedwards
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



My experience and belief is the same as those stated in Jim’s post. I DO believe every Home Inspector should be accountable though as I am sure most if not all inspectors do. In the past “licensing” to control a profession was thought to be the sure cure for shoddy work. If that were true than none of us would have a job. We routinely go behind “professional” tradesmen and find that a license did not stop or prevent them from doing a shoddy and very often unsafe job. Licensing is not the pancea it was once thought to be. As stated many times over the short time I have been a member of NACHI the real answer to quality is education, a Code of Ethics that is enforceable and plain old peer pressure. This accountability has to extent to the Realtor community as well. They can’t keep pushing the “cheap” inspector at their customers and hope nothing happens. We as Home Inspectors should be all banding together, pushing “Quality, committment and excellence within our own community and profession”. Through our advertising, presentations and any chance we get. The cheap inspectors usually do not belong to any organizations (frankly they probably can’t afford to belong at bargain basement prices). I’ve looked at most if not all the HI organizations and there isn’t a dime’s difference in our SOP’s and COEs to the point of argueing about who is more professional or more qualified is silly. There are excellent, experienced inspectors in all of the organizations. There appears to certain areas where one organization is prodominent over others and the inspectors naturally lean towards being in that group. I do not hold that against them, its smart business; its called “organizational politics” and is present in all businesses. Inspectors need to get over themselves and start working together or others will come along and take over the running of our profession and we will be left holding the “messy” end of the stick.


Licensing any profession costs A LOT of money. Typically, those costs are passed on to the profession it regulates. I believe in Louisiana, it costs the inspector $5 for every inspection he/she does. If you do 300 in one year it just cost you $1500 not counting your license fee. Something to think about.


Originally Posted By: jrooney
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Most legislation is just CREATING A NEED AND FILLING IT. The scammers always get around it. The very fact that we need to inspect NEW homes should be sufficient to acknowledge that licensing is ineffective. Who is really accountable? The builder who in fact built the home or the inspector who inspects? While we all need a set of standards to follow. We don’t need legislation to create more costs that do little good. If the legislation that regulates new home construction was effective we would never have a cause to inspect a new home. The fact is more people are having their new homes inspected and we are finding deficiencies. Proof that legislation and permit funded gov’t compliance inspections are ineffective at providing a quality product.


JIM


Originally Posted By: rcooke
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Good or bad I can handle Licensing but it should be arms length from any association .


We have more then one association and we have many inspectors who belong to none .


My past experience tells me if it is controlled by an association then there are too many ways to circumvent the rules .


Has been done constantly in the past and still is being done in the present.


If control is being done by any association it gives the association too much power.



Roy Cooke Sr.


http://Royshomeinspection.com

Originally Posted By: rwand
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I am for licensing or regulation by the government. It does not guarantee competency any more then self regulation. To be set up properly in my opinion there should be an overseeing council appointed by government, made up of industry people and consist of a maximum of 7 members. The members elect a BOD who report to the council. In this manner only then can members be assured of an open and equitable oversight. It takes the power out of special interest and stops the special privileges that plague self regulaton. I am not interested in what it will possibly do to the market. Any fair legislation should call for annual education. With licensing comes the opprotunity to lobby for a limit to liability, and true independence from other market forces, such as Realtors.


Repeatedly at least one Canadian Association has shown that self regulation is only as good as the leaders want it to be. This must stop and if it takes licensing to rattle the tree, then it sounds good to me.

Raymond Wand
Alton, ON


Originally Posted By: jbushart
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



out of the profession? icon_lol.gif


I've never heard that argument before.


--
Home Inspection Services of Missouri
www.missourihomeinspection.com

"We're NACHI. Get over it."

www.monachi.org

Originally Posted By: rwand
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Jim


Let me clarify. The government appoints upto 7 individuals to the oversing council. They could be made up of a Realtor, Lawyer, lay person, and one other the rest could be home inspectors. This council oversees the BOD (made up of HI) who are voted in by the licensed inspectors. Of course any legislation should be done with full and qualified input from HI first and paramount, not by industry stake holders. I think we have different situation up here in that members of one association are already self regulating and they have not proven in over 10 years they can manage it or nurture fairness. Time to take the power out of abusive hands, the way I see it.

I hope that clarifies the post?

Cheers
Raymond Wand
Alton, ON


Originally Posted By: jbushart
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



rwand wrote:
Jim

Let me clarify. The government appoints up to 7 individuals to the oversing council.


A political body creates another political body...okay. Go on.


rwand wrote:
They could be made up of a Realtor, Lawyer, lay person, and one other the rest could be home inspectors. This council oversees the BOD (made up of HI) who are voted in by the licensed inspectors.


Okay. The political body of seven people oversee another political body (voted by home inspectors) of seven people. I don't understand why you would have seven people in charge of seven people, but okay.

Since these boards don't exist, yet, to make the licensing rules - where do you get the "licensed inspectors" to vote for them?


rwand wrote:
Of course any legislation should be done with full and qualified input from HI first and paramount, not by industry stake holders.


Until you have licensed members, you have no one to vote in a second group of "overseers". Even when you do, the government appointed industry stakeholders who have veto power over your second board are still in total control.

No matter how hard you try to filter it or preclude it, Ray, a law creates a political process that will replace the existing market-driven process. To those who are losing the market-driven game, this might be acceptable.


--
Home Inspection Services of Missouri
www.missourihomeinspection.com

"We're NACHI. Get over it."

www.monachi.org

Originally Posted By: ekartal
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



100% all for licensing. At the very least it makes a moderately diificult exam a pre-requisite.


Erol Kartal
ProInspect


Originally Posted By: jbushart
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



ekartal wrote:
100% all for licensing. At the very least it makes a moderately diificult exam a pre-requisite.

Erol Kartal
ProInspect


Erol,

You might be interested to know that your ASHI national president, Don Norman, recently appeared on a St. Louis television station stating that the entrance test and "low" number of CEU credits for Illinois inspectors are grossly inadequate. This was his televised assessment following a report of an Illinois homeowner in Granite City, IL who bought a "nightmare house" that had been inspected by a "licensed" home inspector.


--
Home Inspection Services of Missouri
www.missourihomeinspection.com

"We're NACHI. Get over it."

www.monachi.org

Originally Posted By: dedwards
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



testing without a license requirement. Unfortunately, in the past many these “appointed” boards become small empires controlled by one group or another to the detriment of others and the members never change or if it does it gets passed along to another close “associate”.


Originally Posted By: rwand
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Jim


I understand your questions, but I think you overlook the fact that this is how other regulated professions operate up here, that actually have been legislated to look after public interests. Currently Oahi is not regulated for the public interest it is set up to regulate itself. It has no government oversight what so ever.

Of course anyone who is a licensed inspector would have a vote to elect representatives to the BOD, that is democratic, and this BOD of directors reports to its government overseers. Best of both worlds. You can't have a membership of licensed inspectors without grandfathering to get the whole system in operation. Thos grandfathered inspectors who are now licensed hold a vote as new people enter the profession and are licensed they too hold a vote, so it will take a number of years to develop. I don't think any home inspection association in Canada is looking after individuals interest but rather their own interests. However having said that I would settle for a full audit of the self regulating association as an alternative to licensing.

Cheers,
Raymond Wand
Alton, ON


Originally Posted By: ekartal
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Jim are we talking about the same Don Norman that Nick likes? icon_wink.gif


As far as the Illinois CEU issue is concerned...If you're going to act like you know everything at least make sure you do. Illinois has perhaps the highest CE requirements in the nation. Are you sure that's what Don Norman said Jim? Don't worry I'll ask him myself and mention your post while I'm at it. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

Erol Kartal
ProInspect


Originally Posted By: jbushart
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



ekartal wrote:
Jim are we talking about the same Don Norman that Nick likes? ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

As far as the Illinois CEU issue is concerned...If you're going to act like you know everything at least make sure you do. Illinois has perhaps the highest CE requirements in the nation. Are you sure that's what Don Norman said Jim? Don't worry I'll ask him myself and mention your post while I'm at it. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

Erol Kartal
ProInspect


You better do a little research, Erol. Illinois requires fewer CEUs on an annual basis than NACHI. Don Norman explained that, because the CEUs were also fewer than ASHI's, it was inferior and less than acceptable.

Here is an email I received from an Illinois licensed inspector who saw his report:

Quote:
im -, I saw the Don Norman news cast and as an ASHI member myself was angry and extremely disappointed he would take such a cheap shot at not only Nachi but also The Illinois state requirement continuing education, while ashi requires 20. He failed to mention that Nachi requires 24 hours per year anf that ashi charges the membership for anything and everything they provide------totally biased and a blemish on home inspectors in general. I once thought Don was a good person who wanted to help home inspectors----that broadcast proved me wrong. Frank



When you call him, ask him what he thinks of Illinois licensing requirements and post his answer to this thread, please. Help me burst a few bubble. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


--
Home Inspection Services of Missouri
www.missourihomeinspection.com

"We're NACHI. Get over it."

www.monachi.org

Originally Posted By: John Bowman
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



NACHI’s numbers increase each time a state undertakes or implements liscensing. icon_smile.gif


Originally Posted By: jbushart
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jbowman wrote:
NACHI's numbers increase each time a state undertakes or implements liscensing. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


Is that why you're for it?


--
Home Inspection Services of Missouri
www.missourihomeinspection.com

"We're NACHI. Get over it."

www.monachi.org

Originally Posted By: ekartal
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



OK Jim I agree. But with the Illinois CE requirements that I need annually I must prove that I actually took the course(s). Is there a system set up at NACHI where the 24 hours worth of mandatory CEU’s are verified? If not there should be.


Erol Kartal
ProInspect


Originally Posted By: jbushart
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



ekartal wrote:
OK Jim I agree. But with the Illinois CE requirements that I need annually I must prove that I actually took the course(s). Is there a system set up at NACHI where the 24 hours worth of mandatory CEU's are verified? If not there should be.

Erol Kartal
ProInspect


That's not my department, Erol. Ask Joe Farsetta.

But back to the topic of the thread, your example is additional proof as to how state licensing has failed to protect consumers (not that it was ever really designed to) and failed to gain acceptance as nothing more than a basic minimum standard.

The best example I can think of is that my wife is a state licensed driver of automobiles. ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)


--
Home Inspection Services of Missouri
www.missourihomeinspection.com

"We're NACHI. Get over it."

www.monachi.org

Originally Posted By: ekartal
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Basic minimum standard perhaps. But I can assure you that the NHIE is a much tougher exam than the NACHI quiz.


Erol Kartal