It is rare that I find a weep screed at the base of AMSV (stone veneer) over wood framed homes. Also I have never seen a 3/8 expansion gap with backer rod and sealant when the stone abuts an exterior door, window, trim and different types of cladding. Literally every inspection I am calling it out as a defect, and every single new build on the street is missing this expansion gap at the windows, doors, trim and different siding (EG vinyl).
The local AHJ is obviously not requiring these details on the AMSV and I feel like I am kicking up a fuss with local contractors and realtors when I follow the instructions of the MVMA 6th edition. The MVMA 6th edition can be viewed at MVMA-Installation-Guide_4th-Edition-6th-Printing.pdf - Google Drive
At what point does a “generalist” stop reporting these missing details as a defect if the local AHJ allows it? Typically most of the stone is only at the front elevation, and the entire house is not stone siding, therefore they are not requiring these details.
I clearly see these details are required according to major stone manufacturers like Eldorado, Centeron and Cornado stone who all say they follow the MVMA 6th edition. Therefore, I am very curious to know how often everyone finds these missing details on stone veneer and if an experienced inspector is not calling one or more of these details out ? Specifically missing expansion gaps at windows, doors, trim, siding etc… and missing weep screeds?
It’s one thing to get into a pissing match with a builder or AHJ if they push back on something that is verifiably wrong. But ultimately, it is up to the client to start that pissing match.
I conducted a pre-closing a while back where the “stone” veneer was called out for not being sealed properly, similar to what you mentioned above. My client demanded to the builder it be repaired as I recommended, and a pissing match between them ensued… A couple of days later, the builder’s super called me to explain their position on the matter since my client wasn’t having it. The builder also provided me with the manufacturer’s installation instructions for the specific product, and they followed the instructions exactly. The super had explained to me that they followed the standards that you mentioned in your OP for every product they used, until they had to warranty some stone that didn’t make it through a full season. I forgot all the details, but in the end the manufacturer refused to warranty the product because they installed it in accordance with that standard and not the manufacturer supplied specific instructions. From my understanding, they had to strip the product from the entire home and replace it. Very costly warranty work on their part. From that point on, the builder stopped using the “generic standard” (builder’s words) way of installing stone, and would only follow the manufacturer instructions. Keep in mind, they didn’t use the same old generic stuff that every other builder used at the time either…
Point is, unless you know without a doubt, who the manufacturer is of the specific product you are seeing and what their specific installation instructions say, it may not be worth your time to huff and puff and start your own pissing match. Just report what you see, and move on… When I have a new build or warranty inspection and I see what I believe should be called out on a product that I can’t verify, I will include a statement that the client should request the product information and installation instructions for that specific product, as my opinion may not “jive” with what the manufacturer says…This includes veneer and siding…
Looks like you have a good handle on it, backed up with industry standards per the manufacturer. Chapter 7 of the Code has more references if you want more backup. ASTM C1780 or The Masonry Society TMS 402 and 602 have more backup.
Stick to your guns! I remember calling out new construction improper stucco and balcony installations in one Condo neighborhood in Ft. Myers 2015/16(?). Probably a couple dozen inspections in that neighborhood. Of course the builder claimed “it passed Code”, “that guy doesn’t know what he is talking about”, “that’s how we build them all” yadda, yadda, yadda.
2020/21(?) I had an inspection in that same neighborhood, pulling in I was staring (WTF Welcome To Florida) is going on in here?? Units everywhere with blue tarps on the walls and roofs (not consistent with storm damage). One of the units a few doors down from our inspection they were busy working on the damaged areas. All of the exterior stucco/wall sheathing up 3 floors was being removed/replaced.
During the inspection the balcony for the unit had an Official condemnation notice proclaiming the balcony was unsafe “DO NOT ENTER”. Come to find out all of the balconies had been red flagged by the city and over 50% of the units were slated for exterior wall covering repairs with other units likely to be included in the future. The exact same issues were happening at a sister neighborhood in Naples built during the same time frame.
In those instances I just note that the installation doesn’t meet the manufacturers requirements. There were no symptoms or conditions of failure at the time of the inspection. If a product or installation failure occurs, the warranty may be affected.
Regarding veneer stone, In Colorado we’re a very arid climate and I routinely see shortcuts from the manufacturers installation requirements and usually don’t ever see failures, even in 20+ year old installations. I think the climate just doesn’t require the measures that have to be taken in other areas of the country and our AHJ’s seem willing to overlook those departures from the “standards”. I just want the client to know it’s wrong and what the consequences may be but to also temper that with the local conditions are that lead to these oversights by installers and AHJ’s.
Thanks Mike. I am not looking at manufacturers specific requirements as I have no idea who the manufacturer is most of the time. I use this statement in my reports: “Any and all deficiencies referenced in this report were based on the MVMA 6th edition.” Just incase a manufacturers instructions may differ.
I agree with both Larry and Michael. The Building Codes will defer to the manufacturer installation requirements. I do not attempt to identify the manufacturer of the material unless markings or documentation is at/with/on the materials. As a result I will cite the Building Codes and industry standards and add a phrase similar to this.
The manufacturer and model of this material could not be identified. I recommend you have the Builder identify this material to you and provide a copy of the manufacturer’s installation requirements documents so that the issues found can be verified as present or correct as per the manufacturer’s requirements.
As for the AHJ passing it I can tell you story after story how so many are so blind they must be chauffeured to the job site and issued a blind man’s cane to prevent tripping on site!
As for when do you stop reporting it? NEVER if there is an issue or a suspected issue! Myself I do not care about any Builder, contractor, or Real Estate Salesperson and only care that the client is fully informed. That includes informed about suspect bad build practices! I would much rather the Builder do their job and provide the client information showing it is not an issue than having a client experience bad things later if it actually was.
My AHJ doesn’t require much as well. I see weep screed and flashings on stucco 1/20 new construction and have never seen backer rod or sealant at windows. Same goes for AMSV. I include an advisory statement letting the client know that it doesn’t meet industry standards, but is accepted by the AHJ and they can take it from there. This helps a lot with the “pissing match” scenario as you are clear that it isn’t right, but it is locally accepted allowing the client to be informed enough to make a decision. I try to avoid using “manufacturer” and typically go with “installation or modern standards” as it’s a little more broad. Here’s my information advisory: Exterior Cladding Advisory: The home is clad in stucco, but the installation lacks certain protective features commonly recognized as best practices in modern stucco application. These include proper ground clearances, weep screeds, expansion joints, flashings, terminations, and sealants at transitions between different materials, such as around windows and doors. While these features are not required or enforced by local codes, they are designed to enhance the durability and performance of stucco installations.
These protective elements play a critical role in managing moisture and reducing potential issues:
Flashings and Terminations: Direct water away from the wall assembly, minimizing the risk of water penetration.
Weep Screeds: Allow moisture behind the stucco to escape, preventing buildup that could lead to mold or mildew.
Expansion Joints: Reduce stress on the stucco caused by temperature fluctuations, minimizing cracking.
Sealants at Transitions: Prevent gaps at material junctions, reducing the chance of water intrusion around doors, windows, or other transitions.
While the absence of these features does not necessarily indicate a defect or immediate issue, particularly in drier regions like eastern New Mexico, it does make the stucco more susceptible to moisture-related problems over time, such as mold, mildew, or structural damage.
To enhance the longevity and performance of the stucco cladding, consulting a qualified stucco contractor or building envelope specialist is recommended. Potential improvements could include adding flashings, sealants, or weep screeds during future maintenance or renovations. Regular inspections of the stucco and adjacent materials can also help identify and address any signs of wear or moisture intrusion, ensuring the system continues to perform effectively.
About 2-3 yrs ago we were contacted by a large national company from Iowa that makes & sells green lawnmowers, tractors and lots of similar stuff. They had an Exec moving to my area and buying a new construction house ($600k-$700k). It had just passed local code and was heading to close (almost). This corporate company sent me their own checklist to answer YES / NO to about 15 questions on the AMSV on the front of the house.
Example … A question might ask if - - There was weep screed at the base of AMSV (stone veneer); OR if there was a 3/8 expansion gap with backer rod and flexible sealant where the stone meets an exterior door, window, trim, etc.
If the answer was YES, I simply moved to the next question. If the answer was NO, they had me take Pic(s). When done I sent the Questionaire to them AND forgot about it.
ABOUT 10 days later I started getting NASTI-GRAMS and phone calls from the builder, installer, realtor, even the city AHJ. Seems unless the builder did about $14k-$15k worth of work to the house that just passed code … There was gonna be no closing and possible litigation.
It was my GREAT joy to be able to say … “SORRY folks, I just answered the questions they asked with NO RECOMMENDATIONS for anything - - Just YES or NO”. If you got an issue call them, have a nice day. Its my understanding the stuff got done.
ONLY time I remember seeing the wrong BS get corrected UNLESS there was existing damage.
AMV is our new or next EIFS desaster! It took about a decade before EIFS really was discovered for what it was doing to homes from being improperly installed. The same is true for AMV! AMV or Faux stone is basiclly stucco with a manmade stone finish instead of a stucco finish! It has the same design and instalation requirments and just like stucco, if details are ignored and the system is not installed properly, it will fail.
Do not stop telling folks it is instaleld wrong! Report what you are finding and go on with life and to the next AMV home and repeat the process.
That’s a really nice advisory Bob and makes sense. My clients are really worried about details such as missing expansion gaps at transitions and I tell them it’s wrong after the builder and AHJ tell them it is correct and then I show them the industry standard pictures which ultimatley leaves the clients not knowing who to believe. That’s why I started this post to gain an understanding on how other inspectors are reporting these missing details because again AHJ is allowing it in multiple cities and I rarely see them done. I am going to have to come up with something like you did Bob. Thanks!
Keep in mind the vast majority of the AHJ’s do not look at how AMV, EIFS, Stucco or most claddings are installed or if they are installed to the manufacturers guidelines.
