Neutral/Ground sharing lug

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1

Originally Posted By: ecrofutt
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Here’s a picture of neatness for you. Whoever wired this put the ground and neutral from each circuit under the same lug. Of course, they forgot or neglected to run a ground wire to the panel.


![](upload://zvs8kfJwDWv8RobuoWcJtjwqqB.jpeg)


Your thoughts?


Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspections
Georgetown, KY
www.b4uclose.com

2

Originally Posted By: Robert Patterson
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Two wires under a lug is a no-no. Hard to tell for sure, but it looks like the gutter fill is exceeded. Is that romex sheathing in the upper left corner? Looks like some excess oxidation at the SE connections.


Bob

3

Originally Posted By: ismetaniuk
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This membership was a big waste of my time!!!

–
Igor


Top To Bottom Inspections


Glen Spey, NY

4

Originally Posted By: ecrofutt
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I doubt the fill capacity was exceeded. Here is a pic of the whole box. It had several other issues in it too. Didn’t look for or see an “Underwriters” sticker on it.


Excess oxidation? Nah, copper SE in good condition. Two wires under a lug a no-no. Yes, in this situation, but not always. It's ok for grounds and breakers so designed.

It's a self built, environmentally friendly, house in the hills, about 18 miles from the nearest "decent" road. WAY back in the woods. Only heat is a wood stove and large south facing windows.

Owner is a sociology professor who is selling because he is moving into a commune.

![](upload://xB1Kknc5eE6CgZhhrxeosv2u7Zl.jpeg)


Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspection
Georgetown, KY
www.b4uclose.com

5

Originally Posted By: ismetaniuk
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


This membership was a big waste of my time!!!

–
Igor


Top To Bottom Inspections


Glen Spey, NY

6

Originally Posted By: Robert Patterson
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B4UClose,


Does the panel label allow more than one conductor under the lug? NEC(1999) 110-14 (a) "Terminals for more than one conductor and trminals used to connect aluminum shall be so identified". Also, (hard to tell) but it still looks like excess oxidation at the neutral SE. I agree with the others to check for permit and have electrician evalute.

Bob

7

Originally Posted By: ecrofutt
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Ya’ll live in to civilized of an area. CO’s , Permits, etc. No such thing in that area enforced. Of course, I recommened not just an electrician to look at those problems I found, but a complete, thorough, all the way thru the house check of the entire electrical system that goes way beyond that of a home inspection… There were just to many issues.


Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspections
Georgetown, KY
www.b4uclose.com

8

Originally Posted By: ecrofutt
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Could be SOME of them, but not all. Some of his guests are so obviously from New York or LA.


Erby

9

Originally Posted By: Badger
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My master electrician tells me that neutral must stand alone but grounds may be double…NEC.



Morgan
Badger P&H
Badger Home Inspections

10

Originally Posted By: Robert Patterson
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Badger,


Can you get me a reference? Only thing I can find is that terminals marked for more than one can be used as such, it makes no differentiation for neutrals. Need to check the equipment to determine if it’s ok.


Bob

11

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Bob,


You are only allowed to place one grounded wire (neutral) under each termination on the buss bar.

The grounding wire (green or bare) is allowed to be installed according to the specs on the panel which is usually something like three number 14's, two number 12's and one number 10. You should check the specs on each panel, they usually differ from one manufacturer to the next.

Take note that the buss bars can be bonded and the wires placed on the same bar, you just have to keep the grounded (neutral) one to a terminal.

Badger had it right, so he must know a good master electrician. I would keep him handy for future reference Badger! ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

Joe Myers

12

Originally Posted By: Robert Patterson
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Joe,


I'm in agreement with you, but what's the reference?

Bob

13

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Bob,


I know it is there but I will have to look it up for you. In the older days they tried to have this covered under 110 but they added to it to back up UL and their ratings.

I will get back to you on which section.

Joe Myers

14

Originally Posted By: ecrofutt
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Bob,


Search the www.inspectionnews.com board. There was a recent discussion of this issue there that included the actual code reference.

On second thought, I just copied it here. It was originally copied from an electrical contractor bulletin board.



Question:
When installing new panels, I often find that there aren't enough
terminals in the neutral/ground bus bars to accommodate all the
neutrals and ground wires. Is it permissible to pigtail several
grounds with one lead from the pigtail to the bus bar?


Answer:
This is the first time I've heard of running out of neutral terminal
spaces. Maybe you should run more multi-wire circuits to reduce the
number of neutral conductors or maybe you don't want to use 3-wire
cable for some reason.

Section 408.21 requires that each neutral conductor must have its
own individual terminal that is not used for another conductor, which
means that connecting more than one neutral conductor or a neutral
conductor and a grounding conductor to a neutral terminal is not
permitted. This information may be found in the UL Standard 67 for
panelboards and is required to be shown on the label in every
panelboard.

Since it is unlikely that more than one ground-fault will occur at
the same time it is permitted to splice equipment-grounding conductors
together and pig-tail with one properly sized conductor to the ground
bar.



Section:


408.21




Erby Crofutt
B4U Close Home Inspections
Georgetown, KY
www.b4uclose.com

15

Originally Posted By: jmyers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Bob,


Erby beat me to it. Section 408-21 is the the correct section. Until the 2002 code book came out they tried to enforce this through 110-3(b).

Good job Erby!

Joe Myers

16

Originally Posted By: Robert Patterson
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Joe, Erby,


Here we go again. I have always been taught and followed the one neutral per terminal. However, I never could find a reference. NEC (99) 110-3(b) states to read the labels (always a good idea), but if the label doesn't say only one neutral under a terminal and the terminals are rated for two conductors, then two neutrals would be okay (theory only, I don't prescribe to this practice). Now you have NEC (02) 408.21 that says only one neutral per terminal, but read the exception, "Grounded conductors of circuits with parallel conductors shall be permitted to terminate in a single terminal if the terminal is identified for connection of more than one conductor". Now we are still under NEC 99 here, some places are under 2002 and others under older versions, most amended by local AHJ.

Now knowing this, if a panel label allows more than one conductor under a terminal and does not address the neutral and you see two neutrals under a terminal, what do you write? How many HI's can look at neutral terminals and state whether or not it's a parallel circuit? Is it a NEC violation? Does your local AHJ address the issue or just what's in the NEC?

This is why I kept asking for the reference. Everybody says "never", but it is allowed. All of these reasons are why I strongly advocate knowing the local and national codes, but never citing them and calling the licensed experts when in doubt.

Bob

17

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Bob,


Do you think it's time to let them know what your other qualifications are besides being a HI? Guys, did you ever hear of a lawyer asking a witness a question he didn't already know the answer to? ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

Joe F

18

Originally Posted By: Badger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Well done Mr. Patterson,


Good information and advice!

MA

19

Originally Posted By: Robert Patterson
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Joe,


I do not profess to know everything. In fact the question on this thread is a good example. When I was learning electrical, I was taught not to double lug neutrals or anything else, even though there was never a hard rule in the NEC. Erby and Joe Meyers caught the 2002 NEC reference and I had to read it. Most times before I answer I try to find and reinforce my knowledge (I use this as a way to keep current and educate myself). That's why I kept asking Joe for the reference, I want to know. The one time I didn't was in reply to how to size a water heater and I ended up with egg all over me. I also strongly advocate NEVER citing code by a HI, you're asking for trouble of all kinds, unless you have a photographic memory, you'll miss the Fine Print Notes or Exceptions in the Codes. Codes have to be read word for word and used with no assumptions. A good example is the term outlet, look it up, many people think it's a receptacle (to include electricians), it's not and that creates confusion and many problems.

We all learn something from everybody everyday, otherwise you're sleeping 24 hours a day or you're dead.

Bob

20

Originally Posted By: jmyers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Bob,


The single wire under a neutral lug has always been that way. UL mandates that with the UL 67 listing on panels. Unfortunately, this is a large safety concern and the NEC did not consider backing them up until the 2002 version of the codes came around. Until now they tried to use 110-3(b) to try an enforce this.

Loosing a neutral is a larger safety concern than the ground. It has a tendency to burn things up, real quick and without warning. Remembering that the ground is like a back up in case the neutral fails, its an Oh Well situation, you will probably never need it anyway.

While most electricians know this is a NO NO they continue to practice this. Actually I rarely call this one unless there are other factors which would influence the integrity of the connection, such as vibration.

BTW...I think electricity is close, if not the most dangerous system in the home today. I have read some articles on AFCI and the code now requires it in bedrooms. I think they should require AFCI in the entire house why stop at the bedrooms. Most fires in homes are arc faults, not ground faults.

My tip for the day after saying that is BUY ELECTRICAL MANUFACTURER STOCK!!

Joe Myers