One Family Dwelling in Chicago area wired in thinwall

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1

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Location


One Family Dwelling, Bensenville, Illinois

![](upload://canDs6m9svTnPyoPIYYwOAHhTUO.jpeg)



--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

2

Originally Posted By: rcooke
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Thanks Joe I always wondered about doing this.


I am sure the Electric Inspector had a good chuckle.


. Roy Sr

–
Roy Cooke Sr.


http://Royshomeinspection.com
3

Originally Posted By: pdacey
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See this thread


http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/viewtopic.php?t=13204&highlight=

--
Slainte!

Patrick Dacey
swi@satx.rr.com
TREC # 6636
www.southwestinspections.com

4

Originally Posted By: wdecker
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Why a good chukle?


This is how it is done around here almost all the time.

Everything enclosed, and in its own ground (the EMT). If Romex shorts (like when they use the wrong staples and pierce the insulation) the hot is not guaranteed to be safely taken away to ground (like it will if it is in thinwall of pipe).

If the stuff over heats (like it does when the outlets are just 'punched down' instead of screwed) it is contained in a fireproof container.


I think this is a superior technique.

--
Will Decker
Decker Home Services
Skokie, IL 60076
wjd@DeckerHomeServices.com

5

Originally Posted By: jwortham
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I was wondering about the chuckle too.


See it this way all the time here.

Maybe he was referring to the conduit "Labeling" technique! ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

6

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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The big belly laugh is the rest of the country when they hear Chicago people talking about how Romex simply bursts into flames for no particular reason. You don’t hear us talking about how a pipe job loses its ground when the joints corrode (or are improperly installed). We don’t talk about the problems when pipe is improperly deburred or that most electrical problems happen at the terminations, not the wire itself.


This Chigago law is simply an IBEW that has the government in it’s pocket.

7

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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I chuckle as this in my opinion is more about making work for the Electricians Union than about safety.


99.9% of North America uses NM but it is not good enough in Chicago. ![icon_confused.gif](upload://qv5zppiN69qCk2Y6JzaFYhrff8S.gif)

NM has a great safety record when installed correctly.

--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

8

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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Bob, they do have that pyromaniac cow problem.

9

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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When I posted this picture I was not finding any fault with the installation.


I wonder how many rodents have been able to chew into the tubing in attics and in walls.

I've seen many images posted here showing the results of rodent attacks on nonmetalliic sheathed cables and Type SE Cable.

![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

10

Originally Posted By: dedwards
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We make every effort NOT to co-habitate with rodents. but your point is noted and well taken. icon_wink.gif

11

Originally Posted By: Kyle Kubs
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I agree with Mr. Badger… For the major portion of the country, this is considered ridiculous… I have wired plenty of commercial buildings with EMT and in those instances that is the right way. I can not imagine wiring a stick framed house with it. Does the EMT get run through all the studs in the wall too or is the building method a little different to accommodate the wiring method?

–
Those that say it cannot be done should stop interupting those of us who are hard at work, doing it…

12

Originally Posted By: jwortham
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No special methods. It’s just run right through the studs.


I guess when that's a big part of what you see, it doesn't seem that unusual.

This must be one of those geographical kinds of things.

Since I inspect in the suburbs of Chicago, I see romex wiring. But not in anything newer than approx. the mid 70's. And I am sure Will rarely sees it, if at all.

And as Joe pointed out, rodents don't spend much time chewing through it.

13

Originally Posted By: wdecker
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I see it. but mostly EMT.


Here is my point:

Why is EMT needed in commercial but not in residential? Does this make commercial safer?

I know that the Union / local government incest exists and is live and well in Chicago and the close suburbs. But lets leave that aside.

Does having the conductors entirely enclosed in metal conductor make it safer? Of course.

- No rodent chews.
- No physical damage.
- All shortsfrom frayed or damaged wire immediately passed to ground.
- Any electyrical fires enclosed.

If EMT is safer (as the above proves) why not have that as the gold standard. You guys sound like a bunch of old sparkies, 'Hey, it meets code. That's good enough. Whatarya, some kind of stoopid radical?'

The point was made, 'as long as it (Romex) is installed properly'. This incluses stapeling it properly. How often does Joe Homeowner do this?

You ask about running the path. I don't know about you, but I ALWAYS call out holes drilled in the studs of a load bearing wall (which an outside was usually is). The proper way to install conduit (or Nomex, for that matter), is to run it up from the floor, not laterally. More work, yes, but a much better job.

So call me crazy or a stooge of the unions, but I assure you that you are mistaken on both counts.

Safer is safer. 'Safe enough' is a cowardly statement.

--
Will Decker
Decker Home Services
Skokie, IL 60076
wjd@DeckerHomeServices.com

14

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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Do you require a grounded conductor in the EMT to get your blessing?


Otherwise one loose connection and you have no ground. Leave a little burr on a pipe somewhere and you have a serious life safety hazard.


The fact remains that a bad job is dangerous, no matter what the wiring method is and if the job is done correctly it will be safe.

15

Originally Posted By: wdecker
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Greg:


Do you require a grounded conductor in the EMT to get your blessing?

It's nice. I do it on my own installations and the (code) inspectors love it. Call it a 'Real Professional Job'.


Otherwise one loose connection and you have no ground.

If the installation is a good job, there are no loose connections. I test continuity. Does not the same problem exists with a Joe Homeowner install of Romex? I have seen 50 year old installs in pipe that still have a great ground. Beisdes, If EMT is used, you can alwasy be sure that the job was done by a pro, pretty much. With Romex, it is a toss up.

Leave a little burr on a pipe somewhere and you have a serious life safety hazard.

Again, de-burring the cuts is a 1st day, apprentice lesson. What about piercing the Romex insulation with a bad staple job. Much easier to do.


The fact remains that a bad job is dangerous, no matter what the wiring method is and if the job is done correctly it will be safe.

Preciecly! Our job is to make sure that a good job is done and call out a bad one. With EMT, it is MUCH more likely that a good job was done, wouldn't you say?

--
Will Decker
Decker Home Services
Skokie, IL 60076
wjd@DeckerHomeServices.com

16

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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Quote:
Preciecly! Our job is to make sure that a good job is done and call out a bad one. With EMT, it is MUCH more likely that a good job was done, wouldn't you say?


It all depends on who is doing the work. Romex is a lot more forgiving of a weekend installer. [/quote]
17

Originally Posted By: wdecker
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By definition, a ‘weekend’ installer is not a licnesed and insured electrical contractor, therefore the job that they would do is inherently inferior.


This 'weekend installer' may do a great technical job, but they provide the owner with no relief of liability, nor with recourse (insurance) is something goes wrong.

--
Will Decker
Decker Home Services
Skokie, IL 60076
wjd@DeckerHomeServices.com

18

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Ault, Singh, and Smith, ?1996 Residential Fire Loss Estimates?, October 1998, U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, Directorate for Epidemiology and Health Sciences.


http://www.cpsc.gov/library/fire98.pdf

How much of the "Installed Wiring" was in EMT?

--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

19

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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Will, I guess they don’t have “home” stores in Chicago. Homeowners never do wiring themselves?


The electrical department is one of the busiest places in our Home Depot.



Joe those stats do not break out various wiring methods.
Perhaps we should just look at "electrical fires" and compare Chicago to other cities where RX is OK.

20

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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BTW Will, never move to a right to work state. You will find the guy working for that “licensed, insured contractor” may have been a roofer last month. icon_rolleyes.gif


I would rather see him yanking Romex than trying to cut, bend, deburr and install EMT.
They are building so fast here we can't get enough decent trades. They started about 1000 houses in my county this month (and every other month for the last 2 years).