QOD for 06/28/04 (exterior)

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#1

Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Hi to all,

New topic this week, exterior questions.

Regards

Gerry

--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

#2

Originally Posted By: jrooff
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How can you inspect homes when you have bars on your windows? icon_lol.gif

#3

Originally Posted By: jhagarty
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icon_question.gif

–
Joseph Hagarty


HouseMaster / Main Line, PA
joseph.hagarty@housemaster.com
www.householdinspector.com

Phone: 610-399-9864
Fax : 610-399-9865

HouseMaster. Home inspections. Done right.
#4

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Window bars are security features on many urban homes. Windows at or near street level is where you typically see them.


You will also see window bars on some hi-rise buildings. In those instances, they are a child safety feature.

Regardless, the windows depicted are at ground-level, as are the security bars. How then can they be security devices if they are required to be opened with hand motion only? Any idiot burglar will open them and defeat the purpose entirely, all the while laughing at the dwelling occupants, while bashing their skulls in.

Graphic, yes... but I'm trying to make a point.

--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

#5

Originally Posted By: dfrend
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I have a great article from a fire I was on to show why to have the release, but I think Gerry might be using it. If not, I will post it later. In the mean time:


http://www.firehouse.com/infozone/usfa/bars.html

--
Daniel R Frend
www.nachifoundation.org
The Home Inspector Store
www.homeinspectorstore.com

#6

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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To heck with bars. Doberman, alarm, 9mm, .44 mag. icon_biggrin.gif

#7

Originally Posted By: mbartels
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I have a min-pin. Will that be O.K.?

#8

Originally Posted By: Gino Conner
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I’ve never seen a Miniature Pinscher in real life.


How big do they get Matt?

#9

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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What is the answer? Where is the reference?

–
Joe Farsetta


Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."
#10

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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Where is today’s (29th) question. I need my fix… icon_biggrin.gif

#11

Originally Posted By: dfrend
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Joe, I don’t think that they add much value besides the material they are made of, so the answer has to be the Last one. Not sure where he got the question, but that is definitely what all fire safety officials preach.

–
Daniel R Frend


www.nachifoundation.org


The Home Inspector Store


www.homeinspectorstore.com

#12

Originally Posted By: tallen
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Security bars are required to open by hand (from the inside) Burglars usually start from the outside icon_biggrin.gif

–
I have put the past behind me,


where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.


www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005
#13

Originally Posted By: jrooff
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Just got home and no QOD, I’m starting to get the shakesss. If this goes on to long I fear withdrawales are next. HELP I need a fix, or in this case a question.icon_lol.gif icon_lol.gif

#14

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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I dont care what the fire marshalls preach. I want to know what NACHI believes is the correct answer and reference it. Otherwise, this question was a waste of time.

–
Joe Farsetta


Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."
#15

Originally Posted By: rbracklow
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Hey Blaine,


I like your idea of protection, even if it isn't Politically Correct - at least not here in California!!

Ron.

--
The highest compliment my clients can give me, is the referral of their Friends, Family and Business Associates!

NorCal NACHI Chapter Founder and Chairman.

#16

Originally Posted By: dfrend
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


I know Joe, my point is the reference has to be from thge industry that most controls these things. Like you would reference plumbers for pipes, or HVAC for a furnace. The bars, besides adding safety, are most controled by the safety officials. Some areas even have in regulations requiring the indoor releases.


That said, check the reference of the link I posted earlier. While it is not code, it is a safety issue which are part of many reports. The US Government goes so far as to recommend the inside release. They don't add much value, so I don't think that could be considered. I don't know a single official in any industry who would consider a release on the outside. As for keys, yes there should be keys for any doors and such, but usually even that does not make a difference. Point is I have never seen any agency(CPSC, NFPA, FEMA) recommend anything but the hand release.

FEMA's recommendation for releases:
http://www.firehouse.com/infozone/usfa/bars.html

Real Life Reason(were it not for the brave actions of my good friends from Morningside, MD, this person would be dead because of the bars):
http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article/article.jsp?sectionId=45&id=5369

--
Daniel R Frend
www.nachifoundation.org
The Home Inspector Store
www.homeinspectorstore.com

#17

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Dan,


Point taken. I was a volunteer firefighter for many years, so i know what the preferred answer is. My pronlem with the QOD lately is that no "correct" answer is given, and when it is, there are few references as to why, other thasn to say that someone feels it is correct.

We're supposed to be learning from this... If I am to be swayed, I should have a reference, having to do with our industry.

As to the security bars, I wouldnt want to provide your stated advice to anyone in certain crime-ridden sectins of town, as it is more likely they will be raped, beaten, or murdered from a break-in, than trapped by fire if keys are hanging on a wall next to the security bars.

So, yes, I want a building code reference. Otherwise, this post was nothing more than a discussion point.

--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

#18

Originally Posted By: dfrend
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I actually asked Gerry why so many had no answers given lately. And always the ones that get the most response. i agree, we need answers!


I actually saw my first release bar about two months ago on a demo given by anderson at the Fire Academy. They were testing the devices with the Fire Protection Engineering Students at UM. They said there are a few on the market, this one is not yet. It has a small bar on the latch side that goes away from the window on the inside. The way it is designed, no burgular could get an arm in to release it. And as added security it is designed to take a good deal of force to release, and specifically, only the force somebody on the inside could apply. It does little to allow firefighter access, we still have to cut, or design a tool to work the release. But it does allow a trapped person to get out.

While it is true that there are ways to force it with mechanical assistance, that is true already. I have seen people in DC alleys chipping mortar away with a screwdriver to get in. So yes, serious criminals can bypass them, but they do all the time anyhow. Also, a burgular from the outside would never be able to tell that these are any different than others very easily.

I live very near areas these are prevalent too,as seen in the article from my county. I have seen trapped bodies laying just inside the windows and doors, and had to cut the bars to free them. They can kill just as many as they protect from robbery. But the crime does make them a necessary evil.

--
Daniel R Frend
www.nachifoundation.org
The Home Inspector Store
www.homeinspectorstore.com

#19

Originally Posted By: dbush
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.


Joe, Gerry is unavailable by phone or computer right now so I don’t know what reference he used, as soon as I find out I will let you know. However, some QOD’s such as the one from 6/30/04 do not have a “blanket reference” to them, but they are still vital for learning.

–
Dave Bush


MAB Member


"LIFE'S TOUGH, WEAR A HELMET"
#20

Originally Posted By: tallen
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A year or so ago. A burglar was caught trying to get into a home with security bars that had the quick release installed. The owners were out of town so it would appear the guy had cased the place. Anyway he was using a 6’ Johnson bar to pry the bars off. It made enough noise that a neighbor called the boys in blue and the man was arrested. He had managed to get 3 of the 6-8 anchors loose. In this case the home was slump block so prying the quick release was not possible.


I also have this type of bars on my home. Getting out requires pulling a pin and pushing the connecting rod out. I have tested all of them and they require about 10 seconds to operate. A fire fighter or paramedic could cut through the connecting rod with a die grinder in nothing flat.

I installed the bars on my home cuz I used to spend up to 2 years at a time working away from home.

--
I have put the past behind me,
where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.

www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005