QOD for 4/8/04 (Electrical)

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Blaine,


The receptacle is allowed to be GFCI protected when there is no equipment ground present, although the correct answer would have included the receptacle must be marked "GFCI Protected" and also marked "NO EQUIPMENT GROUND".

I have to say that it was a guess on my part what the writer of the question was trying to relay through this question and it just so happens that I was correct and answered correctly.

I guess it would come down to me knowing about this particular portion of the code which allows this situation which allowed me to answer correctly. For those that want to look it up, NEC 406.3(D)

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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My thoughts went with my buddy Blaine’s. The “no equipment ground” sticker is required when GFIs are used where no ground is present.


I answered "B", but knew that "A" would probably be the best answer.

For those of you who didnt realize it, this forum is one of the best tools I've seen for a certain exam test prep. I say that because, after you aswer correctly or incorrecly, you get the "desired" answer. I say "desired" to cover the poorly worded question, which may still wind up as a real exam question. You wont soon forget it, with this methodology. I know I wont.


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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BTW


Does anyone say anything about the "GFCI protected" sticker that is missing on most GFCI protected outlets?

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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The question doesn’t state whether or not the receptacle is marked “No Equipment Ground” … so it can’t be assumed it isn’t marked … icon_wink.gif


But, are you guys serious that you would consider a GFCI receptacle without the sticker a "Safety Hazard" ...


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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roconnor wrote:
But, are you guys serious that you would consider a GFCI receptacle without the sticker a "Safety Hazard" ... ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)


It could be, but I would still sleep soundly


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Robert


A fellow inspector (inspecting me) asked me where that sticker was a week ago.

Would I enforce this? No.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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I’m not saying the sticker isn’t needed … if it’s missing it should be noted.


That GFCI on a 2-wire circuit might possibly be a "safety concern" as a stretch. But a "Safety Hazard" ... no way.

Just my 2-nickles


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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My only concern is without the sticker it is not clear that you should not plug-in 3 wire cords into this outlet.


The GFCI will not prevent a shock.

In reality even with the sticker homeowners are going to plug in 3 wire equipment and that is too bad either way.

JMO, Bob ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Bob Badger wrote:
The GFCI will not prevent a shock.

It should. Lets say ya plug a drill with a 3-prong cord into that outlet, and the drill has a short of a hot wire to the metal case (casing fault). The fault would not be cleared by the breaker ... but if someone came along and touched the hot drill case and say a faucet, the GFCI should detect the hot-neutral imbalance and trip.

I'm just not following that it's a "Safety Hazard", which to me mean something is an immediate danger that needs to be corrected by a licensed professional.

And if an electrician is called in to put stickers on the outlets, then everything would be okay, and not a safety hazard ... ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: lfranklin
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I’m no electrical guru, but I think I see where Bob is headed with this. Back from time past I knew of a company that would not let us use tools that the ground was cut off or damaged. (all plugs were gfci) Now he has got me to thinking What if there was no ground on the outlet is that not the same as no ground on the tool?


Now does this mean that we should only plug things with two prongs into a gfci that is marked no equipment ground?

![icon_redface.gif](upload://f7DX2EWhmUfsDapWaYT3oJHMCj1.gif) Sorry for thinking, I know I shouldn't be doing it.proably going at it backwards ![icon_redface.gif](upload://f7DX2EWhmUfsDapWaYT3oJHMCj1.gif)


Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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roconnor wrote:
Lets say ya plug a drill with a 3-prong cord into that outlet, and the drill has a short of a hot wire to the metal case (casing fault). The fault would not be cleared by the breaker ... but if someone came along and touched the hot drill case and say a faucet, the GFCI should detect the hot-neutral imbalance and trip.


Robert that is not the whole story, this 'someone' would have to get a shock before the GFCI trips.

A GFCI is not preemptive you will receive a full 120 volt shock before it trips, all a GFCI can do is limit the amount of time you will receive the shock.

lfranklin wrote:

Now does this mean that we should only plug things with two prongs into a gfci that is marked no equipment ground?


According to the NEC 250.114 your correct, you should not plug a grounding type appliance into an outlet with no grounding means.


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Bob Badger wrote:
Robert that is not the whole story, this 'someone' would have to get a shock before the GFCI trips.

Very true ... but a GFCI should trip at a very low current, like 5mA, which will not hurt someone and is not a "Safety Hazard".

I would rather see a 3-prong GFCI on an old 2-wire system, than a 2-prong standard receptacle ... where ya just know someone is gonna lop off that ground prong or maybe use a cheater plug with the ground lead connected to nothing.

I'm not saying there is nothing wrong with an unmarked GFCI on a 2-wire system, but I am just not seeing a "Safety Hazard" there.


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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roconnor wrote:
Very true ... but a GFCI should trip at a very low current, like 5mA, which will not hurt someone and is not a "Safety Hazard".


Hi Robert it would be nice if it worked that way but it does not.

First your body gets in series with the circuit, then the current rises to 5 ma, then the GFCIs components have to sense this rise above 5 ma and open the circuit.

This does happen fast, but not before you take quite a few cycles of full current form the line.

Trust me a shock on the load side of a GFCI hurts just as much as one on the line side, the only difference is you can not (if it works right) get hung up on it.

Also the 5 ma level was chosen based on health adults, baby's, children the frail may indeed have a problem with that level.

I once had that much faith in a GFCI and let a hot GFCI protected conductor hit a grounded box. BOOM just like the GFCI was not there.

Quote:
I would rather see a 3-prong GFCI on an old 2-wire system, than a 2-prong standard receptacle ... where ya just know someone is gonna lop off that ground prong or maybe use a cheater plug with the ground lead connected to nothing.


There is no difference the ground in both case is connected to nothing.

I would like to see a two wire type GFCI receptacle no ground hole at all for use as replacements on the two wire circuits.

Yes some people would still find a way to cheat and get around this but it would stop the less creative.

Even better would be all double insulated appliances for home use.

JMO, Bob

By the way have you got out riding?


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Bob O,


I was not assuming that the "stickers" were missing at all. The code clearly states that if this setup is going to be used, those stickers must be present, so you would have to include that information in a portion of the question or the answer in order for the question and answer to be correct.

The real danger of the two wire circuit which is GFCI protected is that I have never seen one labeled "no equipment ground" which alludes the user into a false sense of security.

I personally would rather see the occupant call an electrician to install a properly grounded receptacle where ever they need them, that is certainly the safest route to go.

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Bob Badger wrote:
By the way have you got out riding?

Sure ... gotta like the better weather ... ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Never said I’d call it out. I’m speaking in technicalities. If you knew the distribution cables had no means or suppluying a ground to the receptacle, and a GFI was present, and it didn’t have the “not grounded” sticker, would you mention it to someone?



Joe Farsetta


Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."