Originally Posted By: dbush
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Still electrical.
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Dave Bush
MAB Member
"LIFE'S TOUGH, WEAR A HELMET"
Still electrical.
"LIFE'S TOUGH, WEAR A HELMET"
Originally Posted By: jmyers
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As not to give the answer away I will reserve my comments on this question until tomorrow but be warned that is incorrect, even though it was the correct answer you were looking for.
Joe Myers
Originally Posted By: evandeven
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Do we mean “correct” as in the answer being correct or do we mean “code compliant?”
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Eric Van De Ven
Owner/Inspector
Magnum Inspections Inc.
I get paid to be suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious about!
www.magnuminspections.com
Originally Posted By: James D Mosier
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I think I see two answers that could make this a true statement but am unhappy with choosing either. Could I just defer to a licensed electrician?
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Jim Mosier
Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Eric,
I see what you mean, but like I said, I prefer to speak about it tomorrow when the question has come to pass.
Joe Myers
Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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I believe Big Joe eludes to the situation where GFCIs may be used in situations where ungrounded branch circuit cables are in place.
One would have to ask the age of the property, to render the SAFEST answer, but that was not the question... was it.
BTW, I answered it incorrectly. Which is the true beauty of this QOD thing... 
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Joe Farsetta
Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."
Originally Posted By: dosborn
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If I am doing a non-intrusive inspection, how would I know it was only wired with 2 wires?
Dan Osborn
Originally Posted By: dvalley
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Dan,
With a three light tester. One light verses two.
Not invasive at all.
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David Valley
MAB Member
Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com
"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."
Originally Posted By: evandeven
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Visually in the attic, only two wires.
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Eric Van De Ven
Owner/Inspector
Magnum Inspections Inc.
I get paid to be suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious about!
www.magnuminspections.com
Originally Posted By: tallen
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The Panel
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I have put the past behind me,
where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.
www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net
30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005
Originally Posted By: roconnor
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| dvalley wrote: |
| With a three light tester. One light verses two. |
Do not trust a 3-light, or any tester, for something like that ... use you senses (yes, the eyes) ... 
| tallen wrote: |
| The Panel |
Bingo ...  ... that, and removing a few receptacle covers.
I have some very good links/info on GFCI testing ... if it becomes an issue.
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Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: roconnor
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| jfarsetta wrote: |
| BTW, I answered it incorrectly. |
Oh brother, again ...   
(Duck)
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Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: evandeven
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What is the correct answer?
It’s only 11:00pm so I will have to wait until the morning!
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Eric Van De Ven
Owner/Inspector
Magnum Inspections Inc.
I get paid to be suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious about!
www.magnuminspections.com
Originally Posted By: James D Mosier
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Well it’s tomorrow. Here’s what I see.
A) acceptable -- Yes/No, GFCIs do work without a ground and could maybe be acceptable for old work? (I could very well be wrong on this)
B) safety hazard -- Yes, definately with no ground
C) not operating properly -- No, it trips when tested
D) must trip with tester -- Yes, not working properly if it doesn't.
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Jim Mosier
Originally Posted By: evandeven
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Here is what I see:
A) Acceptable. Per code, if this is an older home and a true two wire system with no ground, the only way to have a three prong outlet would be to use a G.F.I. outlet and label it ungrounded. As it meets code, which is a safety code, it cannot, by definition, be unsafe.
I answered A for that reason.
B) Safety hazard. See above, unless, the home was a two wire system and was rewired using Romex with the grounds disconnected. I say this because I inspected a home where the owners rewired the house. After testing several outlets and open grounds were found, I pulled the cover off of the panel which was hidden in a cabinet, and discovered that all the grounds were cut! They were present at the outlets when I pulled a few face plates.
Also B as it is G.F.I. protected. I have said before that I don't believe in G.F.I. protection. I would estimate that 50% of the G.F.I. outlets that I test do not function. They either do not trip, do not shut the power off to the outlet that I am testing, or are just stuck and don't work at all.
A majority of homeowners do not even now that they are supposed to test them monthly. I would also like to see the statistics on how many less deaths there are since G.F.I. protection was implemented.
If you were inspecting this home, how would you write it up? Would you write anything up?
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Eric Van De Ven
Owner/Inspector
Magnum Inspections Inc.
I get paid to be suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious about!
www.magnuminspections.com
Originally Posted By: dbush
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Well, Eric, be quite proud of yourself because you got it right. “A” is the correct answer, it is ACCEPTABLE to have a 2 wire GFCI, not preferred, but acceptable. I don’t remember where, but that is actually one recommended way of “upgrading” 2 wire non grounded systems, but I don’t remember where I read that.
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Dave Bush
MAB Member
"LIFE'S TOUGH, WEAR A HELMET"
Originally Posted By: roconnor
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… AND CLICK HERE
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Robert O’Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: James D Mosier
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So it is A) acceptable even if it doesn’t D) pop off with GFCI tester?
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Jim Mosier
Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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I was taught that A was only acceptable if the outlet contained a sticker with the wording “no equipment ground”. Since “A” did not have that wording I answered “B”.
Is that now incorrect?
Originally Posted By: evandeven
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I would agree with you there Blaine.
The question was poorly worded.
Unfortunately, this is the case with a lot of the tests out there. Questions that are ambiguous in nature and therefore, you could make a case for several answers to be correct. Our job is not to determine which is the “best” scenario, but to observe and report on an improper condition.
A better question would have been "Is this allowed"?
The answer is yes, provided the sticker was present.
In the given situation, I advise my clients that although this "fix" is permissible, I would recommend rewiring the home. It may not happen, but if it were my home, I would rewire it.
PS Thanks for the clingy Dave!
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Eric Van De Ven
Owner/Inspector
Magnum Inspections Inc.
I get paid to be suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious about!
www.magnuminspections.com