Originally Posted By: rhinck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I inspected a home this week built in the mid-60’s with 2-prong outlets throughout the house. I noted this in my report, especially those in wet locations. When I opened the service panel cover I found the home was wired with grounded romex, except the ground wire had been clipped off inside the panel. Does this need to be reported?
Originally Posted By: dbush This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
First report it, second find the sparky or homeowner that did it and slap the hell out of them. The only thing that I can think of that I would recommend is to have a sparky come in and splice ground wires, if there are not enough now to fit into the bus, and attach those and then recommend replacement of all outlets. In my opinion, this is not the same as an unground system because those homes have not been wired for ground, this is just crappy workmanship.
Originally Posted By: rhinck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dave,
I did just what you said-except the slapping the hell out of the sparky! I find either the above or the ground wire stuffed in the back of the recept. box unattached and still with grounded type receptacles. I quess at least this is "more correct" than refusing to connect and letting people think they are protected w/ a ground. At this same inspection there was a GFCI in the bathroom that would only trip using the test button on the receptacle. My "plug-type" tester only showed open ground and would not trip with the test button. Is this correct and how is installing a GFCI making this installation "more safe" than an outlet without a GFCI. I was taught that this should be my recommendation when I encounter ungrounded circuits. Thanks in advance.
Originally Posted By: dbush This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I’m sure people will correct me if I am wrong, but a GFCI without a ground is no better than any other ungrounded circuit. Actually, in my opinion, it is worse because it gives people a false sense of security.
Originally Posted By: mbailey This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
A GFCI will provide ground fault protection on an ungrounded outlet ? it just provides no grounding protection. Debate is ongoing about whether push button testers indicate proper functionality on an ungrounded outlet ? I have seen them go both ways.
Use the built in test button on the GFCI ? if that works the fault protection is working.
In a wet area I think we can all agree that a GFCI should be grounded.
Perhaps Dennis Bozek has some additional info?
-- Mark Bailey
Stonegate Property Inspections LLC
Ponca, NE
Originally Posted By: psabados This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Rick
Exactly the way you observed it. Ungrounded GFCI within _____ feet of sink, or whatever. Unit can not function properly, needs to be serviced by a QUALIFIED licensed electrician. Shock and safety hazard
Take a pictrure of it with your tester plugged into it, showing the hazard or condition. That's if you have a camera
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Guys … GFCI outlets (2-wire or 3-wire) provides people protection. Grounding provides casing fault, equipment and wire protection.
a GFCI on a 2-wire or 3-wire circuit will almost instantaneously trip if someone touches a hot/neutral fault or wire while they are grounded. That is why GFCI outlet are required in wet/damp areas where you are likely to be grounded (kitchens, bathrooms, basements, garages and outside).
But a GFCI will not trip if there is a hot to neutral short or hot/neutral to ground fault on the circuit/supply wire ... no wire protection, as that is the breakers job. That, and to clear ground faults (e.g. casing shorts) on 3-wire grounded circuits.
Check out GFCI outlets with a decent plug-in tester (e.g. GB Sure Wire). If the GCFI doesn't trip immediately at the outlet when you hit the button on the tester, or the circuit breaker trips instead of the outlet, there is a problem.
And nothing protects you if you touch or complete the circuit between the hot and neutral ... ZAP ... 
Just my two nickles ... and I agree ... slap somebody ...
Rob
-- Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: psabados This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Well said Rob
That why I prefer my Ideal Sure Test over the standard plug-in type. Not only does it ID botleg grounds, it applies 6 milliamps to the GFCI and will tell you how long it took to trip. Costs more but does so much more
Anybody that installs Romex, leaves the ground off at the receptacle and then clips them off at the breaker box 
Originally Posted By: sam jones This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hey Guys, be careful with some of the testers for gfci ckts. out there. Some testers shunt the power to ground when the button is pushed, but dont trip the gfci because it is an ungrounded ckt. If and I sayIf the cover plate is metal and ckt is ungrounded and you push the button aand touch the cover plate at the same time, you can be electrocuted. Get a different type of tester and have it with you. If testing gfci’s on grounded ckts your ok with this type of tester. Equipment grounds are not a substitute for gfci"s. If an area is a wet location and I had to make a choice I would take the gfci, hands down. We dont have to make that choice so both is best… Sam
Originally Posted By: roconnor This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Those SureTest circuit analyzers are good and will pick up bootleg grounds, but expensive … plus I think using one might be crossing the line into electrical evaluation. The GB Sure Wire is one of the better simple plug in testers. You just have to be aware of possible bootleg grounds and spot check 3-prong outlets on 2-wire circuits. Plus it fits my “Harry Homeowner” rule … … a homeowner wouldn’t usually have a SureTest analyzer.
And anytime you are near power, think in terms of one hand in your pocket ... or actually do it where possible ... and 3 layers of protection (options include insulated tools, hot gloves, insulated boots, dry location).
That is why Moisture = Grounding = DANGER ... you just lost one of your possible protection layers ...
Originally Posted By: sam jones This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
In the box that the gfi comes in there are some stickers and I know there are (no equipment ground sticckers) in there also, but I agree with the idea that we dont need to be labeling. If the homeowner installed a gfi on an ungrounded ckt, thats ok , but he should label it as such…
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dennis,
From your standpoint as a sparky. Is it pretty tough placing those stickers on every receptacle downstream of those receptacles? I have found that when the sparky installs the GFCI in the bathroom he does not always check those three prongs downstream that should have the "no equipment ground" label placed on them also.
Do you think they are being lazy or is it just that much of a pain in the butt?
Some day I will find one that has been properly marked! 
Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Well Paul and Sam…If you read my post I said I would add that such a label belongs there. I, in no way said the HI should label it. But then some HI’s here are concerned with voltage drops and load calcs so…for those that are into that stuff…mightaswell mark gfci’s too. I also got a nice pipe job comin up…who wants to learn how to bend emt??
Joe....those stickers they give you in the box often fall off shortly after they have been applied. The dry out and fall off the receptacles...so this might be why you don't see many stickers....othewise I'd say there are some lazy sparkies in your neck of the woods. Often times, a gfci is installed but not installed other outlets too....so it might be possible that there are no other outlets being protected from ay gfci in the house. Also, if a ground wire is installed...then there is no need for that tiny sticker that states no egc installed....cuz ya got one.
-- This information has been edited and reviewed for errors by your favorite resident sparky.
Originally Posted By: tgardner This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
As for trusting the push buttton tester on the outlet - they can “pop” but not de-energize the circuit. Don’t trust the the bugger. Check it carefully - I can (ZZZZZZT ) attest to it.
… a homeowner wouldn’t usually have a SureTest analyzer.
Well Paul and Sam…If you read my post I said I would add that such a label belongs there. I, in no way said the HI should label it. But then some HI’s here are concerned with voltage drops and load calcs so…for those that are into that stuff…mightaswell mark gfci’s too. I also got a nice pipe job comin up…who wants to learn how to bend emt??