Recognizing meth-labs

Hello Gents-

(By the way, why are most Home Inspectors male? – just wondering)

Continuing on the meth-lab thing, one of the most frequent questions put to me is “How can I recognize a meth-lab?”

A few posts here by others in the past touched on the idea, but those posts sorta-kinda got it wrong (not the fault of the posters, since frequently bad info is intentionally injected into the tweeker community by the good guys, and that info then comes out in other sources).

However, for those of you who are more visual, I have posted a new page describing how to recognize a methlab – complete with many photos of the topic under discussion.

The page is located at
http://www.forensic-applications.com/meth/recognition.html

(http://www.forensic-applications.com/meth/recognition.html)

Cheers,
Caoimhín P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
www.forensic-applications.com

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG

We have a few great Lady Home Inspectors here in Canada .
My wife, my ex daughter-in-law and another dozen I can think of.
I guess the reason is many come into Home inspection from the Construction trades and it has been a mostly male field .
Roy Cooke … Royshominspection.com

HI!

wave

Hello Ms. Forsyth- (I can see you waving from the crowd)

Keep the guys in line; show em’ how it’s supposed to be done!

Caoimhín

Good Evening Caoimhin, Just curious if it was possible to successfully clean up a meth lab? Or is demolition the answer? Thanks Doug

I hate it when my personal opinions conflict with my professional opinions.

Seriously though, how many of these things would you want to see before suggesting it’s a meth lab. The house being trashed is something I see all too often.

Hello Doug-

Remediation of a lab can be very successful. Sometimes it is very easy, sometimes it is very extensive. However, virtually all methlabs can be remediated.

I have seen several homes wherein the entire contents of the property are confiscated (or condemned) by the city or county, and destroyed (EVERYTHING including fine art, coin collections, jewelry, etc), then the contractors move in and clean.

I have also seen methlabs wherein we perform our preliminary assessment, and issue a “decision statement” declaring the property fit for re-occupancy without any further remediation. Responses run the entire spectrum of possibilities.

BTW, I know the comment was made tongue-in-cheek, however, in the world of the expert witness, professional opinions and personal opinions may be miles apart, and frequently when asked on the stand for my personal opinion, I will refuse.

Cheers,
Caoimhín P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
www.forensic-applications.com

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG

Hi Caoimhin,

That is interesting information particularly for someone like me who has never been exposed to Meth in any capacity. Is Meth also called “ICE”?

What does a “Forensic Industrial Hygienist” do? Sort of like a DENTAL hygienist,… specialized cleaner?

Regards,
Chris

Hello Chris!

Thanks for the comments.

Ice is meth; meth is ice. Chemically identical and a good example of the way the law enforcement community has permitted certain myths to continue – there are many myths about “ice” on the street. Those myths are good for us, but bad for the bad guys.

Regarding “Industrial Hygienist.” Many people think the term is a euphemism, and once when I stopped into a tobacconist for some cigars, the shopkeeper asked me what I did. When I told him I was an Industrial Hygienist, he launched into a soliloquy on public toilets. I listened politely for a bit, and then inquired how we had changed the conversation to such an odd topic; to which he replied “Well, you’re an Industrial Hygienist, right? You clean bathrooms, right?”

Actually, no. We don’t clean toilets, teeth, buildings or anything else for that matter. In all other countries, we are referred to as “Occupational Hygienists.” However, both terms are a misnomer. The term “Industrial hygiene” was adopted (if I recall correctly) by Alice Hamilton MD, in about 1890 or early 1900’s, who was probably the first person in the US to specifically call herself an “Industrial Hygienist.”

Industrial Hygiene is the science and art devoted to the recognition, evaluation, anticipation and control of human stressors in the human environment which may cause sickness, impaired health, or significant discomfort among workers or among members of the general community. The human stressors can be manifest as chemical, radiological, physical or biological hazards. The industrial hygienist is an individual who, by formal training or experience, has obtained knowledge of the effects of stressors on humans and is capable of recognizing when those stressors may become hazards and is capable of controlling stressors as hazards.

Some industrial hygienists are strictly administrative (ensuring that a large corporation is in compliance with all pertinent OSHA rules and regulations, for example), some Industrial Hygienists may be certified or qualified in only one aspect of Industrial Hygiene such as noise, or ionizing radiation. Some Industrial Hygienists are merely attorneys or MDs, and don’t practice Industrial Hygiene outside those areas.

Most Industrial Hygienists however, are very like Home Inspectors in that we, like you, are “generalists.” Most of the competent IHs that I know are proficient in toxicology, physics, chemistry, and microbiology.

Assessing exposures to moulds, Bacteria, viruses and such, for decades were traditionally the realm of the professional Industrial Hygienists – a term that is defined by State statutes in most States (including mine). If one does not have the appropriate credentials, one is not permitted, by law, to practice Industrial Hygiene, or call themselves an Industrial Hygienist.

It is primarily for this reason, that so many “certified” mould experts, and “certified” mould inspectors suddenly appeared a few years ago – they could not meet the proper credentials for assessing human exposures to moulds, (since that was practicing industrial hygiene), so they decided to become “mould property inspectors” and a variety of other names in an effort to circumvent the laws of most states.

It is for that reason that when there is a law suit against an home inspector who has produced a mould inspection in an home, the attorneys will hire a real mould expert – an industrial hygienist. In 19 years, I have never lost a case when I have been brought in as a rebuttal witness against an home inspector’s indoor mould report. Home inspectors are easy to beat in court since all the Home Inspectors whom I have gone up against have collected samples, and they cannot defend their samples – poof! Sample results get demolished in court, and the Home Inspector’s case goes down faster than you can say “Ford Edsel.”

In my case, I am a Forensic Industrial Hygienist, simply meaning that I specifically prepare my stuff for courtroom presentation; in my case, I am also a cop, and tie the two disciplines together. So sometimes, I am working on criminal IH projects, sometimes its civil in the private sector. Believe it or not, there is at least one home inspector who is an active cop, and a number of Home Inspectors who follow this forum who are retired cops. (We have infiltrated your ranks…:twisted: )

Here’s an example of some of my current projects – 1) I was hired by a certain entity of the Federal government to search out, and find explosives inside ducts. 2) I am an expert witness for a Colorado city wherein it is my task to evaluate the chemical exposures and toxicological risks associated with a meth-lab they shut down, and to rebut the report of a certified industrial hygeinist who screwed up. 3) A local police department asked me to help execute a search warrant on a restaurant wherein patrons sat down and inhaled oxygen that was bubbled through a liquid (thought to be ethanol); my task was to help execute the warrant, look for evidence, perform sampling and then perform a toxicological “body-burden” model to determine what the blood alcohol content would be of a patron who inhaled alcohol laden oxygen; 4) I am an HIDTA certified clan-lab safety instructor for the State of Colorado, Department of Public Safety (Division of Criminal Justice) who hires me to teach other police officers how to make meth (and a few other drugs), and how to safely respond to clan-labs (including meth-labs), etc.

So essentially, a general practicing Industrial Hygienist is a scientist, and the only toilets I clean are the ones in my own home. I hope that clarifies.

p.s. I am not an Hollywood TV CSI guy - If we acted like that, we would go to jail. Also, I am just a simple road-dog, prowling the dark streets at 2 a.m. and could very well be the guy who shows up at your house to investigate that strange noise in your basement or with flashing red lights behind you handing you a speeding ticket… sorry :wink: .

Cheers!
Caoimhín P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
www.forensic-applications.com

We are the thin blue line between you, and all the money in the world… and no, you can’t have any.

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG

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Hello Caoimhín,

Hope you have been doing well…:smiley:

NACHI has quite a few certified mould inspectors…:shock:

The crash courses are offered each week…](*,)

Are you guys suggesting that a NACHI certified home inspector of lets say, one year, can’t become an absolute expert authority with regard to mold investigation after a short eight hour weekend course?

What a surprise!

Hi Caoimhin,

By the way, what would you charge to perform your standard mold inspection of a 1600’sf free standing residential structure involved in a sales transaction?

Hello Mr. Handley:

Generally, my standard building inspections for mould cost approximately $500 to $600 depending on travel – the further it is, the more expensive. Simply because I bill port-to-port.

An on site inspection of a 1,600 square foot home usually lasts 1.5 to 2 hours. Typically, I will make a photographic archive of the visit, and perform moisture evaluations in areas of concern.

I will virtually NEVER collect any kind of samples. If one cannot conduct a mould inspection in a building without feeling the need to collect a sample, one is incapable of properly conducting a mould inspection.

In about a quarter of my projects, I am also asked to review the report of a previous consultant; virtually always a “certified mould whatzit” who has collected useless samples and based their report off myths and misconceptions (usually doing something really goofy like following the IESO “standards” or compare indoor spore counts to outdoor spore counts). These are the easiest cases to defeat in litigation.

The work product becomes a written report which describes my methods, rationale, observations, moisture intrusion issues, recommendation and conclusions and a CD of the photographs, videos.

Human exposure assessments to indoor moulds is quite another matter, and projects wherein I am asked to actually assess human exposures to moulds require sophisticated sampling protocols and typically start at about $2,500.00. Normally, these are conducted in conjunction with a law suit (usually against a home builder or a “certified mould whatzit”). In about 90% of the cases where such a suit is pending against an home inspector or mould inspector, I can usually rebut the case by merely issuing an expert opinion of the report the consultant has issued. For those types of courtroom presentations, I charge a modest $195 per hour (plus lunch :wink: ).

Cheers,
Caoimhín P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
www.forensic-applications.com

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG

Caomhin,

I look forward to your contributions to the message board and enjoy, not just the information you provide, but the clear and concise method by which you communicate it. Thank you.

It seems I have been reading your posts for a couple of years, now, and you have “new user” under your name. What’s with that?

Hello James -

Thanks for the comments.

Not sure about the “new user” thing; it started when the forum changed it’s format.

Cheers,
Caoimhín

AMDG

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Caoimhín,

So NACHI’s ( :shock: ONE DAY :shock: ) certified mold inspectors are basically ripping people off taking samples and telling the folks what kind of mold they have? or don’t have?..](*,)

I think so for some reason…:shock:

Hello Dale:

“Ripping people off” implies culpability, and I’m not necessarily suggesting that. Most of the home inspector’s reports that we throw out are from home inspectors who honestly believe that they are providing a useful service. They are honest guys who have been mislead by the likes of Pro-Labs into thinking that their sampling is meaningful.

It’s rather like Home Depot selling their silly, useless, meaningless mould sampling kits; are they “ripping people off?” I don’t think so, they honestly, but erroneously and ignorantly, believe the kits are meaningful – which they are not. But is Home Depot unethical for selling the kits? Depends… what is their standard of care? What should they be expected to know? I don’t think Home Depot is being dishonest, they just don’t know any better.

Now, what if one calls one’s self a “professional?” What is THEIR standard of care? Hmmm… I dare say, in some cases, the misinformation provided by the “professional” may begin to border on fraud … I love fraud, especially when it occurs in my jurisdiction … click click… (the sound of silver bracelets is music to my ears!)

Off hand, I can only think of one individual in my area who is truly ripping people off; since he has already been discredited with his sampling nonsense, and his goofy IESO “standards” but, instead of adopting legitimate mould inspection techniques, he continues to perform the sampling anyway; even though he knows his sampling is always entirely useless.

Cheers,
Caoimhín P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
www.forensic-applications.com

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG

I appreciate your response, but I didn’t learn anything…:smiley:

Go here for Meth education/resources.
http://www.drugfree.org/Portal/DrugIssue/MethResources/default.html